Aston Vs Jag - are we slipping back?
Discussion
George H said:
So they will just become mass produced like the Jag? With more and more models being added so the brand gets cheapened? I'd rather they just bought engine technology from AMG and spent the rest on R+D of current models.
No, did i mention mass produced? where do you think Ferrari would be without FIAT money? where do you think Bentley would be without VW money? Rolls without BMW? Mercedes dont need Aston. Why would they want to help them out?
I know it is hard to do but regardless of who the company, think of them as a business and any business has to be profitable enough to be able to plough money back in to continued investment. Aston cant do that at the moment they need the MONEY of a big backer not their tech and not a requirement to go mass market.
Edited by craigjm on Sunday 7th October 22:52
Neilc123 said:
As someone who has driven both as well I do find the comment that it is not an Aston as remarkable. It is basically saying to me that the brand is more important than the substance and I fear Aston are counting on that at the moment. I fear if people actually used their brains more than their heart fewer Astons would be sold as comparing the cars I think the Jaguar is the better engineered car.
Very well said - and what I started this debate for :scratchin:Interestingly, the next 2 cars I by will be from Land Rover and Jaguar. OK, a 3 grand Freelander and a Series 1 E-Type will not be swelling TATA's coffers, but Jaguar are a creditable brand and I have aspired to an E-Type all my life. I wonder if their marketing machine can make people want the F-Type in the same way..?
Be an interesting combination though, bringing Toyota Production System techniques into the world of hand assembled cars. I dare say we would see an improvement in quality, cars truly produced at the rate of demand by customers and the end of discounting accordingly.
Personally I would not be precious about any help by Toyota or anybody else for that matter, as long as the cars remain quintessentially Aston
Personally I would not be precious about any help by Toyota or anybody else for that matter, as long as the cars remain quintessentially Aston
craigjm said:
No, did i mention mass produced? where do you think Ferrari would be without FIAT money? where do you think Bentley would be without VW money? Rolls without BMW?
Mercedes dont need Aston. Why would they want to help them out?
I know it is hard to do but regardless of who the company, think of them as a business and any business has to be profitable enough to be able to plough money back in to continued investment. Aston cant do that at the moment they need the MONEY of a big backer not their tech and not a requirement to go mass market.
Bentley are hardly known as the exclusive gentleman's express they once were are they? They're now known as footballers cars.... The Continental, as much money as it would have generated for VW/Bentley has cheapened the brand imo. It's going down market every time... especially now they've added a base V8 model. Also, now they're adding a 4x4?! The same has happened with Ferrari... and Lamborghini... and pretty much every once exclusive manufacturer. They've all sold out and just started to get run by accountants rather than a sports car maker. I hope Aston remain independent. They seem to be doing ok at the moment... the AM310quish, the new DB9 (granted it's re-using fairly old tech), and the Rapide (which is due to be uprated). They have a good model line up for a few years by which the new Vantage will be released which I imagine will be at a similar position compared to rivals as the current Vantage was when it was released.Mercedes dont need Aston. Why would they want to help them out?
I know it is hard to do but regardless of who the company, think of them as a business and any business has to be profitable enough to be able to plough money back in to continued investment. Aston cant do that at the moment they need the MONEY of a big backer not their tech and not a requirement to go mass market.
Edited by craigjm on Sunday 7th October 22:52
George H said:
Bentley are hardly known as the exclusive gentleman's express they once were are they? They're now known as footballers cars.... The Continental, as much money as it would have generated for VW/Bentley has cheapened the brand imo. It's going down market every time... especially now they've added a base V8 model. Also, now they're adding a 4x4?! The same has happened with Ferrari... and Lamborghini... and pretty much every once exclusive manufacturer. They've all sold out and just started to get run by accountants rather than a sports car maker. I hope Aston remain independent. They seem to be doing ok at the moment... the AM310quish, the new DB9 (granted it's re-using fairly old tech), and the Rapide (which is due to be uprated). They have a good model line up for a few years by which the new Vantage will be released which I imagine will be at a similar position compared to rivals as the current Vantage was when it was released.
You cannot afford to be exclusive in todays world. Exclusive = Extinct! You say that Aston seem to be doing OK at the moment, what do you base that on? How much do they make out of each car? how much of that is above what economists would call a normal profit so that it can be re-invested in development? Are you saying that Ferraris, Lamborghini's and Bentleys are no longer desirable? do you really think Aston isnt run by accountants? come on lets get real. If they werent run by accountants would the engine the use be 2 Mondeo V6s welded together with some fettling? OK im being unfair but really if you want a company to be independent, exclusive and technology driven then Aston isnt in with a shout, you need to be looking at McLaren.
craigjm said:
You cannot afford to be exclusive in todays world. Exclusive = Extinct! You say that Aston seem to be doing OK at the moment, what do you base that on? How much do they make out of each car? how much of that is above what economists would call a normal profit so that it can be re-invested in development?
Are you saying that Ferraris, Lamborghini's and Bentleys are no longer desirable? do you really think Aston isnt run by accountants? come on lets get real. If they werent run by accountants would the engine the use be 2 Mondeo V6s welded together with some fettling? OK im being unfair but really if you want a company to be independent, exclusive and technology driven then Aston isnt in with a shout, you need to be looking at McLaren.
I don't want it to be technology driven... I want it to be more like Morgan to be honest. I'd like it to go to being a smaller company rather than trying to compete in a bigger market, which then the flaws in the car become more apparent. Plus if they made something more exclusive they might be able to make something beautiful again instead of the fussy design of the later cars to appeal to Chinese/Americans etc etc. I love Aston but I'm genuinely liking them less and less recently.Are you saying that Ferraris, Lamborghini's and Bentleys are no longer desirable? do you really think Aston isnt run by accountants? come on lets get real. If they werent run by accountants would the engine the use be 2 Mondeo V6s welded together with some fettling? OK im being unfair but really if you want a company to be independent, exclusive and technology driven then Aston isnt in with a shout, you need to be looking at McLaren.
And yes, modern Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys all do nothing for me. I wouldn't want to own any of them.... now a classic one, that's a different story
George H said:
I don't want it to be technology driven... I want it to be more like Morgan to be honest. I'd like it to go to being a smaller company rather than trying to compete in a bigger market, which then the flaws in the car become more apparent. Plus if they made something more exclusive they might be able to make something beautiful again instead of the fussy design of the later cars to appeal to Chinese/Americans etc etc. I love Aston but I'm genuinely liking them less and less recently.
And yes, modern Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys all do nothing for me. I wouldn't want to own any of them.... now a classic one, that's a different story
Like it or not the car makers are only going to appeal more and more to the Chinese and Russians because thats where the money is. I suggest you buy a classic aston now And yes, modern Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys all do nothing for me. I wouldn't want to own any of them.... now a classic one, that's a different story
George H said:
Lunablack said:
That'll show him
Has he met you before by any chance
.....
No, never seen him there before. Not been in a while, but the manager there is a very nice bloke. Let me test the SLS and SLS roadster because my dad had bought a lot of cars off him before he moved abroad. Plus I was wearing a watch that was probably worth 80% of an SLK55... so fool on him for not noticing... I was always told a good car dealer judges people off their watch and shoes, not their appearance (I was wearing fairly scruffy clothes). Has he met you before by any chance
.....Edited by Lunablack on Sunday 7th October 21:59
I just want to rub in the fact that he will have lost commission in... if he wasn't such a knob then I wouldn't do. If I do get an SLK55 (when I find somewhere that lets me test one), then I'll definitely go back again just to rub it in. I always bear grudges with s
t car dealers 
George H said:
I don't want it to be technology driven... I want it to be more like Morgan to be honest. I'd like it to go to being a smaller company rather than trying to compete in a bigger market, which then the flaws in the car become more apparent. Plus if they made something more exclusive they might be able to make something beautiful again instead of the fussy design of the later cars to appeal to Chinese/Americans etc etc. I love Aston but I'm genuinely liking them less and less recently.
And yes, modern Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys all do nothing for me. I wouldn't want to own any of them.... now a classic one, that's a different story
There's only one way Aston will ever do something similar to Morgan, and that's if you buy the company And yes, modern Ferraris, Lamborghinis and Bentleys all do nothing for me. I wouldn't want to own any of them.... now a classic one, that's a different story
Have you ever been in a Morgan? Do you really want Aston to go down that route? I'm not saying Morgans are bad cars...but they are not where Aston are at IMO.
Personally I think the company's business model is FUBAR'D. From the figures I've seen posted on here over the last 18mths it doesn't seem to me to be in rude health, and it's model strategy (using the term very loosely) seems to validate that view. How many of each model have they sold this year?
A hook up with a bigger partner is an absolute must or they will die. Money is key, but unlike Craig I also think they need help on the tech front. As much as the VH platform was lauded 10yrs ago, things move on and I strongly suspect it is now more a hindrance than a help. They're in the same position with every area of the cars - are they class leading in engines, gearbox, suspension, electronics? Even if they don't need to be right at the front, can we really say they are even close to class leading in anything other than looks (increasingly debatable) or "ambience".
Tough times, but decisive moves are needed. And their recent unveilings either look like fiddling around the edges or in some cases utter folly.
I would love to be wanting to replace my V8V with another Aston, but there's nothing in their current line up that is urging me to do so.
George H said:
Bentley are hardly known as the exclusive gentleman's express they once were are they? They're now known as footballers cars.....
You do talk some rubbish at times George.....how many footballers do you think actually own a Bentley???Just because a few high profile players have one and are seen in the papers driving them....... Does that mean the whole team has them, or maybe every player in the premier division has a Bentley, and I just haven't noticed
Lunablack said:
You do talk some rubbish at times George.....how many footballers do you think actually own a Bentley???
Just because a few high profile players have one and are seen in the papers driving them....... Does that mean the whole team has them, or maybe every player in the premier division has a Bentley, and I just haven't noticed
They fit the footballer stereotype very well. Bentleys are very 'Cheshire' nowadays...Just because a few high profile players have one and are seen in the papers driving them....... Does that mean the whole team has them, or maybe every player in the premier division has a Bentley, and I just haven't noticed
I drove a Bentley a few years back and I thought it was a jolly good car........and do you know why? because it’s a W12 VW Phaeton with some decent leather work and a 50k premium for shipping it to Crew and putting all the bits together that were shipped from Germany
VW make very good cars
VW make very good cars
michael gould said:
I drove a Bentley a few years back and I thought it was a jolly good car........and do you know why? because it’s a W12 VW Phaeton with some decent leather work and a 50k premium for shipping it to Crew and putting all the bits together that were shipped from Germany
VW make very good cars
I'm not doubting it's credentials as a good car, but it has an image associated with it that I don't want, much like all modern Ferraris. VW make very good cars
Lunablack said:
George H said:
Bentley are hardly known as the exclusive gentleman's express they once were are they? They're now known as footballers cars.....
You do talk some rubbish at times George.....how many footballers do you think actually own a Bentley???Astons image is becoming style over substance. There is a saying that Aston nere built a 'good' car until the DB9. Is it possible that they may never build another...
Murph7355 said:
As much as the VH platform was lauded 10yrs ago, things move on and I strongly suspect it is now more a hindrance than a help. They're in the same position with every area of the cars - are they class leading in engines, gearbox, suspension, electronics? Even if they don't need to be right at the front, can we really say they are even close to class leading in anything other than looks (increasingly debatable) or "ambience".
I think the VH platform was way ahead of its time back then (Lotus' technology) and i think it is stil on the money now. It's incredibly stiff, very light and not to exepnsive to produce. I cannot see Aston having a carbon monocoque for a very long time, if ever and personally would like to see them stick with aluminium.Are they class leading in anything else... sadly not. But they occupy a rarified space all of their own... a top flight presitge Spots GT car manufacturer with no parent company. Quite amazing. Any rival you choose to compare to cannot boast the same; however, this indeopendence they have is also going to be their undoing. When Ford bought Aston, it was going tobe a travesty... instead they turned the company into a genuine competitor.
Withouh TATA, Jaguar would have ceased to exist. Much like Ferrari/Maserati without Fiat and Lamborghini without VW.
Unfortunately, all the big playes have a halo brand, leaving Aston in the cold, probably wher Herr Dr Bez thinks they will dominate the world from. He seems to be fiddling while Gaydon buns.
Toyota was mooted earlier, was that just plucking a maker out of the air or has it been discussed? They make advanced V8s for Lexus, the LFA's V10, big engined hybrids, can supercharge their V6s... But why would they be interested in Aston Martin? It'd be great if they were, they are a proper car maker.
Sure AMG would be ace. But Merc are interested in Merc, not small quirky sub brands (McLaren aside!).
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