Cheap Mulsannes/Turbo Rs?
Discussion
Hello there
I know the general consensus when it comes to cheap Bentleys is to run very, very far away and save up to buy a nice one, but I thought I'd ask for some opinions as my situation is perhaps a little different to most.
Long story short, I am a technician for a Bentley main dealer. Unfortunately my personal experience with the older cars is a little limited (I spend the vast majority of my time underneath GTs!) but I do have a number of work colleagues on hand who would be willing to guide me (I suspect after much banter and ribbing
) through any repair work I might have to do, so it is fair to assume that labor costs on mechanical and electrical maintenance will be pretty much nil.
So, my question is simple. Taking the element of labor costs pretty much entirely out of the situation, is a circa £5,000 Turbo variant Bentley still a pretty bad idea?
I know the general consensus when it comes to cheap Bentleys is to run very, very far away and save up to buy a nice one, but I thought I'd ask for some opinions as my situation is perhaps a little different to most.
Long story short, I am a technician for a Bentley main dealer. Unfortunately my personal experience with the older cars is a little limited (I spend the vast majority of my time underneath GTs!) but I do have a number of work colleagues on hand who would be willing to guide me (I suspect after much banter and ribbing
) through any repair work I might have to do, so it is fair to assume that labor costs on mechanical and electrical maintenance will be pretty much nil. So, my question is simple. Taking the element of labor costs pretty much entirely out of the situation, is a circa £5,000 Turbo variant Bentley still a pretty bad idea?
Hi 279,
As somebody who ran a Mulsanne S Mk II for 10 years, I'd say 'Go For It'. Most parts are widely available from scrappies such as Montagues who also sell new components cheaper that main dealer prices. One major problem is shock absorbers on Active Ride cars, which cost £2500 per pair. If one goes, you are supposed to fit a new pair. They are made solely for Bentley in Germany, and their supply is very tightly controlled. I couldn't find anybody who could recondition the old ones, but found some via Montagues for cash, but still cost me more than a grand cash.
The other thing that caught me out was frayed wires, which lead to mysterious electrical faults which are hard to diagnose.
By comparison with modern Bentleys, these cars have simple electronics and mechanicals, and are easy to work on. As long as you do the valve guides and inlet/exhaust and rocker cover gaskets, you should find the engine trouble free.
Wishing you well,
David.
As somebody who ran a Mulsanne S Mk II for 10 years, I'd say 'Go For It'. Most parts are widely available from scrappies such as Montagues who also sell new components cheaper that main dealer prices. One major problem is shock absorbers on Active Ride cars, which cost £2500 per pair. If one goes, you are supposed to fit a new pair. They are made solely for Bentley in Germany, and their supply is very tightly controlled. I couldn't find anybody who could recondition the old ones, but found some via Montagues for cash, but still cost me more than a grand cash.
The other thing that caught me out was frayed wires, which lead to mysterious electrical faults which are hard to diagnose.
By comparison with modern Bentleys, these cars have simple electronics and mechanicals, and are easy to work on. As long as you do the valve guides and inlet/exhaust and rocker cover gaskets, you should find the engine trouble free.
Wishing you well,
David.
Let us know how things go if you decide to buy...having access to knowledge and labour will be a great help. As mentioned, places like Montagues, Flying Spares etc can help keep part costs down.
For what it's worth, the late 88/early 89 #20,000 series cars seem to be a good bet. Fuel injection and other upgrades but pre-active ride with potential repair costs.
Cheers,
Andy
I thought I heard that you can retrofit standard dampers to Active Ride cars?? Granted, I'd only do that if you were really in dire straits or if a replacement AR damper wasn't available.
I'm in the same boat, as I do most all of my own work. Have a mate in town who is the former head mechanic from when we had a RR/B dealer here, so he is a good font of knowledge when needed. I have a Shadow II and a '90 Turbo R, and find that although they are a fair bit more complex than the equivalent Merc, etc...they're still plenty capable of being maintained by a DIYer.
Does your boss know ? I'll bet that there aren't many of his mechanics willing to drive some Crewe muscle - you are definitely to be commended.
I have three of these Motor Cars, a Silver Shadow II, a '83 Mulsanne Turbo and a '90 Turbo R. I do all of my own work apart from painting. Yes, they were cheap - all three cost less than £10K combined. I do have RRMC history, as my first ever job was in the engine design department at Crewe.
This history is of no advantage in looking after the cars, mind - being a general car-nut helps and being a bit of a perfectionist also helps.
Which car for you ? well, you need to get the latest car you can, 'cos it'll be more advanced (think ABS and fuel injection), but not so late as it starts to get complicated (active-ride). I'd say that the first fuel-injected cars are going to be about right, too. But if you're really handy, you could retro-fit fuel-injection to something earlier, so that would open up the field to Mulsanne turbos as well as turbo R - they are a lot cheaper. I'm also assuming that you're shooting for a turbo, they really add such another dimension to the experience that there isn't a lot of point in bothering with a non-turbo (which is why they are cheap).
You are going to need skills that you don't currently exercise for GTs. Now, I don't know how old you are, or what kind of history you have, but I'll say you'll need to be a competent welder and to be able to trace and fix electrical problems from first principles (with a meter) - these are all more "auto-restoration" skills than "main-dealer" skills. Access to the likes of me will help, too, as we have probably been there before and may know some other sources for the parts you'll need.
The most difficult part for me is in affording the genuine spares - the parts are really expensive. As an example, I did a front subframe rebuild on the Mulsanne and just buying the suspension bushes cleaned me out for four months.
But all in all, I'd definitely go for it - you won't regret it.
I have three of these Motor Cars, a Silver Shadow II, a '83 Mulsanne Turbo and a '90 Turbo R. I do all of my own work apart from painting. Yes, they were cheap - all three cost less than £10K combined. I do have RRMC history, as my first ever job was in the engine design department at Crewe.
This history is of no advantage in looking after the cars, mind - being a general car-nut helps and being a bit of a perfectionist also helps.
Which car for you ? well, you need to get the latest car you can, 'cos it'll be more advanced (think ABS and fuel injection), but not so late as it starts to get complicated (active-ride). I'd say that the first fuel-injected cars are going to be about right, too. But if you're really handy, you could retro-fit fuel-injection to something earlier, so that would open up the field to Mulsanne turbos as well as turbo R - they are a lot cheaper. I'm also assuming that you're shooting for a turbo, they really add such another dimension to the experience that there isn't a lot of point in bothering with a non-turbo (which is why they are cheap).
You are going to need skills that you don't currently exercise for GTs. Now, I don't know how old you are, or what kind of history you have, but I'll say you'll need to be a competent welder and to be able to trace and fix electrical problems from first principles (with a meter) - these are all more "auto-restoration" skills than "main-dealer" skills. Access to the likes of me will help, too, as we have probably been there before and may know some other sources for the parts you'll need.
The most difficult part for me is in affording the genuine spares - the parts are really expensive. As an example, I did a front subframe rebuild on the Mulsanne and just buying the suspension bushes cleaned me out for four months.
But all in all, I'd definitely go for it - you won't regret it.
Thanks for the kind words so far chaps. I have to say that I am a little surprised that nobody has rolled out the old money pit comments and crushed my Bentley dreams before they began!
It'd obviously have to do far more research if I were to go ahead and buy one but so far it is sounding good. Everytime I end up moving an old spirit or Turbo around the site I fall in love and tell myself that I am going to buy one, only recently did I actually begin to think that maybe I actually should.
I think my main concern is suspension and rot worries. What are the odds that my sort of budget would get me an example that wont need to be welded at some point in the near future?
Also, just how much of a "money pit" are they actually? If I bought a 5k Turbo and spent 3k doing it up and making it a nice car with some genuine Bentley paperwork documentting what I have done could I actually see that money back? I have a bit of a short attention span with cars so I can't really trust myself to have a one for years and years and years to truly get my money's worth. The market for these cars at a glance seems all over the place. Other than mileage what does set a 10k car apart from a 5k one, or are the lower priced ones really that rough to justify spending nearly twice that of a better kept example?
And to you owners of these cars, what as a driver do you like the most about your car? Would you be swayed but something more modern
There is an utterly beautiful Turbo RT mullier in at the moment that is acting as my inspiration. Shame my budget wont quite stretch to one!
It'd obviously have to do far more research if I were to go ahead and buy one but so far it is sounding good. Everytime I end up moving an old spirit or Turbo around the site I fall in love and tell myself that I am going to buy one, only recently did I actually begin to think that maybe I actually should.
I think my main concern is suspension and rot worries. What are the odds that my sort of budget would get me an example that wont need to be welded at some point in the near future?
Also, just how much of a "money pit" are they actually? If I bought a 5k Turbo and spent 3k doing it up and making it a nice car with some genuine Bentley paperwork documentting what I have done could I actually see that money back? I have a bit of a short attention span with cars so I can't really trust myself to have a one for years and years and years to truly get my money's worth. The market for these cars at a glance seems all over the place. Other than mileage what does set a 10k car apart from a 5k one, or are the lower priced ones really that rough to justify spending nearly twice that of a better kept example?
And to you owners of these cars, what as a driver do you like the most about your car? Would you be swayed but something more modern
There is an utterly beautiful Turbo RT mullier in at the moment that is acting as my inspiration. Shame my budget wont quite stretch to one!
what's emerging is that these motor cars mean different things to each owner and the budget and approach to running them is as different, too.
I'm quite similar to you in that my first job was at Crewe and I'm partly reliving those times. I'm also a fan of large-fast saloon cars, having a Lotus Carlton, a Holden V8 and a Jaguar XJR in the stable as well as the Bentleys. I also enjoy doing the work on them - I get a real buzz out of driving something that I bought only really fit for scrap.
The car itself is really much more than a car.`I have others that are faster, more comfortable, etc. but none are a Bentley and specifically none have that mix of top-fuel dragster and Chesterfield sofa. None have the ability to turn a bad day into a good day just by sitting in it.
Taking my Mulsanne Turbo as an example, the previous owner bought it because he "fancied doing weddings" (familiar story), so I'd already categorised him as the "wants flash, but no cash" type. He'd had to fit a new radiator and a new turbocharger, so had learned about the cost of components and decided to sell before he incurred any more costs. So he was scared, wrote a bad advert on ebay and I picked the car up for £4050 with a full year's MOT. The bodywork is very sound, I haven't had to weld it yet. Indeed, I used it for the first twelve months and it didn't miss a beat. I'm currently doing large chunks of rebuilding work, ore because I know I'm keeping it for a long time, so I've obtained 1993 subframes and have converted to turbo R running gear.
your budget of £5K plus £3K is entirely reasonable in my experience. Obviously, it's not going to get you a "fully-polished" car from a reputable dealer (more like £25K), but somehow, I don't think that's what you're after.
whereabouts are you in the UK ?
I'm quite similar to you in that my first job was at Crewe and I'm partly reliving those times. I'm also a fan of large-fast saloon cars, having a Lotus Carlton, a Holden V8 and a Jaguar XJR in the stable as well as the Bentleys. I also enjoy doing the work on them - I get a real buzz out of driving something that I bought only really fit for scrap.
The car itself is really much more than a car.`I have others that are faster, more comfortable, etc. but none are a Bentley and specifically none have that mix of top-fuel dragster and Chesterfield sofa. None have the ability to turn a bad day into a good day just by sitting in it.
Taking my Mulsanne Turbo as an example, the previous owner bought it because he "fancied doing weddings" (familiar story), so I'd already categorised him as the "wants flash, but no cash" type. He'd had to fit a new radiator and a new turbocharger, so had learned about the cost of components and decided to sell before he incurred any more costs. So he was scared, wrote a bad advert on ebay and I picked the car up for £4050 with a full year's MOT. The bodywork is very sound, I haven't had to weld it yet. Indeed, I used it for the first twelve months and it didn't miss a beat. I'm currently doing large chunks of rebuilding work, ore because I know I'm keeping it for a long time, so I've obtained 1993 subframes and have converted to turbo R running gear.
your budget of £5K plus £3K is entirely reasonable in my experience. Obviously, it's not going to get you a "fully-polished" car from a reputable dealer (more like £25K), but somehow, I don't think that's what you're after.
whereabouts are you in the UK ?
hello 279,
5 years ago i bought a 90 turbo r, 1 owner,19,000 miles, £12,000 but with only the first 4 years of rr/b service history. it looked to have the best potential of the 9 that i had viewed.i had a rr/b specialist check it over before i committed to it, he found a few minor niggles, but they were enough to chip the price down from £15,000 to £12,000. the salesman had it on his forecourt for a while and said it was taking the space of two cars so he wanted shot of it! only routine servicing had been done after the first 4 years so i had a bit of catching up to do. first job was the throttle position switch i wasn't getting full fuel enrichment or gearbox kickdown, this cost me a day of checking and an inch of solder to remake the dry solder joints in the tps (common problem).I also had a sticky front brake caliper, i rebuilt all 4 front calipers, £50 for the seal kit and £10 each for new pistons.Fitted 4 accumulators, front and rear. Then came the potentially expensive "active ride"...that wasn't working.Visually the dampers looked ok, with 12volts applied directly to the valve solenoids i could hear them click, with a multi meter i did a continuity check on the wiring and found the cable on the front right damper to be broken internally,(common problem) it had to be wiggled a lot for it to show up.That cost a few hours to find and another inch of solder and 6 inches of new wire to repair! However it still wouldn't work so i sent the active ride computer box off to be checked/repaired, the internals were showing their age (common problem) so for £250 the box was refurbished and now the active ride works as it should. Exchange rebuilt active ride front dampers are now avaliable at flyingspares for about £600. My biggest single expense has been a set of avon tyres!!! i have done other bits and pieces but none of them have been overly expensive and i now consider my car to be in very good all round condition. So with the contacts and facility's at your disposal i think you should do it!!!
cheers
phil
5 years ago i bought a 90 turbo r, 1 owner,19,000 miles, £12,000 but with only the first 4 years of rr/b service history. it looked to have the best potential of the 9 that i had viewed.i had a rr/b specialist check it over before i committed to it, he found a few minor niggles, but they were enough to chip the price down from £15,000 to £12,000. the salesman had it on his forecourt for a while and said it was taking the space of two cars so he wanted shot of it! only routine servicing had been done after the first 4 years so i had a bit of catching up to do. first job was the throttle position switch i wasn't getting full fuel enrichment or gearbox kickdown, this cost me a day of checking and an inch of solder to remake the dry solder joints in the tps (common problem).I also had a sticky front brake caliper, i rebuilt all 4 front calipers, £50 for the seal kit and £10 each for new pistons.Fitted 4 accumulators, front and rear. Then came the potentially expensive "active ride"...that wasn't working.Visually the dampers looked ok, with 12volts applied directly to the valve solenoids i could hear them click, with a multi meter i did a continuity check on the wiring and found the cable on the front right damper to be broken internally,(common problem) it had to be wiggled a lot for it to show up.That cost a few hours to find and another inch of solder and 6 inches of new wire to repair! However it still wouldn't work so i sent the active ride computer box off to be checked/repaired, the internals were showing their age (common problem) so for £250 the box was refurbished and now the active ride works as it should. Exchange rebuilt active ride front dampers are now avaliable at flyingspares for about £600. My biggest single expense has been a set of avon tyres!!! i have done other bits and pieces but none of them have been overly expensive and i now consider my car to be in very good all round condition. So with the contacts and facility's at your disposal i think you should do it!!!
cheers
phil
Well put guys.
Love my '90 Turbo. As it has 104K on it, I didn't think it would be in such incredible condition when it came to me, but I guess 22 years of pootling around the pleasant climes of Sonoma County, California, meant the coachwork et al would hold up rather excellently
of course, now I'm hesitant to even take the car out in the rain, so defer to my '77 Shadow II for more regular duties since it has battle scars-a-plenty and isn't really worth dumping megabucks into the body.
If you have the fortune to have a font of knowledge of older Bentley mechanics at your dealer, I'd say do it. That way, if you were to get run over by a lorry tomorrow you can die knowing you were a Turbo R owner. That's my justification at least
Love my '90 Turbo. As it has 104K on it, I didn't think it would be in such incredible condition when it came to me, but I guess 22 years of pootling around the pleasant climes of Sonoma County, California, meant the coachwork et al would hold up rather excellently
of course, now I'm hesitant to even take the car out in the rain, so defer to my '77 Shadow II for more regular duties since it has battle scars-a-plenty and isn't really worth dumping megabucks into the body. If you have the fortune to have a font of knowledge of older Bentley mechanics at your dealer, I'd say do it. That way, if you were to get run over by a lorry tomorrow you can die knowing you were a Turbo R owner. That's my justification at least
Your first port of call should be the showroom where you work. Speak to the sales manager and salesmen there, they will get to hear of cars that the owners wish to dispose of for many reasons. P/x, old age, death, debt, lack of use, the list's endless, in my experience the sales dept can't be bothered to get involved in such stuff or probably don't understand the cars either. Make it known that you are interested and that a case of wine could change hands for the right info and given a bit of time you will be surprised at what is unearthed and it should be at trade money so you shouldn't lose a fortune if you decide to move it on if you get bored of it. Don't get too hung up on the Turbo thing, as a lot of them have had a hard life, consider an Eight or Mulsanne as quite often their owners treated the cars more kindly. Don't rule out a Rolls-Royce either as you will find it easier to sell on and the chances are, if bought right, that you'll make a profit on it. This way you should get chance to view the car at your leisure and pick up a bargain.
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