Kit car industry and how to revive interest and sales

[SystemParanoia]

following on from my previous comment..

how about something the size of an AZ-1 made from a tax free Aygo/c1/107



turboing the engine in the Aygo/c1/107 earns you about 150bhp

http://www.c1gti.co.uk/

i'd buy it!

[KDIcarmad]

SystemParanoia said:

it will be nice to see some kits designed around these new tax exempt city cars, that can then swap a duratec into it after sva

tax free awesomeness

SystemParanoia said:

following on from my previous comment..

how about something the size of an AZ-1 made from a tax free Aygo/c1/107



turboing the engine in the Aygo/c1/107 earns you about 150bhp

http://www.c1gti.co.uk/

i'd buy it!

I like the city car idea, but feel the choice of AZ-1 could a misstake. The AZ was a Japanese K-class car. A micro car, with about 650cc, other great K-class sports cars are the Honda Beat and Suzuki Cappuccino.

The car you are putting forwards is more of sub-MX5 a modern Sprite/MG Midget. I do question how easy it would to turbo the Aygo/C1/107 engine. Does it really need 150bhp? Could the same performance be reached by the use of good aerodynamics and cleverly using low weight materials?

Why swap to duratec after SVA (now IVA) this is an older design than that used in the Aygo/C1/107. Do you again a lot in that swap? Toyota's KR engine used by these offer a lot, 69kg with all ancillaries, VVT-i with multi-point fuel injection, and has 4 valves per cylinder.

I see this working very well in a kit sports car like the classic GTM coupe. An update of this or any other mid engined mini sports car sounds like a good idea?

[ajprice]

107/C1/Aygo supercharger conversion.
http://www.rotrexsuperchargers.co.uk/Rotrex/pages/...

[Steffan]

KDIcarmad said:

SystemParanoia said:

it will be nice to see some kits designed around these new tax exempt city cars, that can then swap a duratec into it after sva

tax free awesomeness

SystemParanoia said:

following on from my previous comment..

how about something the size of an AZ-1 made from a tax free Aygo/c1/107



turboing the engine in the Aygo/c1/107 earns you about 150bhp

http://www.c1gti.co.uk/

i'd buy it!

I like the city car idea, but feel the choice of AZ-1 could a misstake. The AZ was a Japanese K-class car. A micro car, with about 650cc, other great K-class sports cars are the Honda Beat and Suzuki Cappuccino.

The car you are putting forwards is more of sub-MX5 a modern Sprite/MG Midget. I do question how easy it would to turbo the Aygo/C1/107 engine. Does it really need 150bhp? Could the same performance be reached by the use of good aerodynamics and cleverly using low weight materials?

Why swap to duratec after SVA (now IVA) this is an older design than that used in the Aygo/C1/107. Do you again a lot in that swap? Toyota's KR engine used by these offer a lot, 69kg with all ancillaries, VVT-i with multi-point fuel injection, and has 4 valves per cylinder.

I see this working very well in a kit sports car like the classic GTM coupe. An update of this or any other mid engined mini sports car sounds like a good idea?

I do agree. Toyota's KR engine is a real flyer and pretty well unbreakable unless you are determined to try very hard.

I agree the Duratec is an older engine and uses earlier technology. Engines have changed fundamentally on the 40 years since I was driving an A series full time and with a B series engine as the family car in a 1300GT Austin and an 1800cc Wolseley 18/85.

Fantastic fuel consumption and minimal emissions, making taxation minimal £30 a year.

I think that the Cox GTM coupe could be reworked but I would hope Fuoriserie or Stuart Mills of MEV fame, could bring out a lighter stronger more appropriate body/chassis at a really good price and set it up for a one donor build using all the parts from the donor wherever possible to keep the costs down.

I must also bang my drum on wanting a softop rather than a coupe, but as Stuart is proving in his multi model MEV X5 range we could have different forms offering even more individuality.

[SystemParanoia]

i only mentioned the duratec as i was also reading a duratec westie build blog at the time so it was the first engine i thought of.

but i know the aygo/c1/107 triplets are am absolute hoot to drive, and the fact that i currently have a 3cyl suzuki swift, i know that i really enjoy the 3 cyl engine note

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

I do agree. Toyota's KR engine is a real flyer and pretty well unbreakable unless you are determined to try very hard.

Fantastic fuel consumption and minimal emissions, making taxation minimal £30 a year.

I think that the Cox GTM coupe could be reworked but I would hope Fuoriserie or Stuart Mills of MEV fame, could bring out a lighter stronger more appropriate body/chassis at a really good price and set it up for a one donor build using all the parts from the donor wherever possible to keep the costs down.

I totally agree with you as I've been following the Toyota 3 cylinder engine since it was introduced in 1999 on the first Toyota Yaris 1000cc, but it was also used on the Daihatsu Sirion.

It would make for a fantastic single donor on a compact mid-engine Coupe/Targa kitcar....

You could use an exhisting Sylva Mojo chassis and install the Aygo/C1/107 engine with and rebody it with something new.

Hopefully someday it will become a pesonal design project of mine when funds will permit ...

[dom9]

An updated GTM coupe with this engine in would be a lovely thing and make for a nice Smart alternative... I'd be very interested in that, if my PH Directors build could be accomodated!

[cymtriks]

KDIcarmad said:

Ferg said:

I'd be interested to see some concrete testimony that the X1/9 was inspired by Unipower. I've never heard that before. And if you mean GTM, it pre-dated the Fiat by some while. Interestingly GTM sold a mid-engined road car before Ferrari got 'round to it.

Cannot find the book I read it in. Both the GTM under Cox and Unipower GT were in production in 1967/8. The Autobianchi Bertone Runabout that became the X1/9 was shown in 1969 and the production 1972.



Looking at the Runabout [/b]I don't see any styling links.[/b] Clearly from the dates it is possible.

That's because I'd guess it isn't true!

Believe it or not a massive company employing thousands of engineers, designers, consultants making concepts year after year might work this one out for themselves!

Or to put it another way, just because X and Y are similar and X came before Y does not mean that the makers of Y copied, or were even aware, of X.

[KDIcarmad]

cymtriks said:

KDIcarmad said:

Ferg said:

I'd be interested to see some concrete testimony that the X1/9 was inspired by Unipower. I've never heard that before. And if you mean GTM, it pre-dated the Fiat by some while. Interestingly GTM sold a mid-engined road car before Ferrari got 'round to it.

Cannot find the book I read it in. Both the GTM under Cox and Unipower GT were in production in 1967/8. The Autobianchi Bertone Runabout that became the X1/9 was shown in 1969 and the production 1972.



Looking at the Runabout [/b]I don't see any styling links.[/b] Clearly from the dates it is possible.

That's because I'd guess it isn't true!

Believe it or not a massive company employing thousands of engineers, designers, consultants making concepts year after year might work this one out for themselves!

Or to put it another way, just because X and Y are similar and X came before Y does not mean that the makers of Y copied, or were even aware, of X.

Found the book, it is in a Italian book, call the History of Autobianchi (English version). It state that the idea for a Autobianchi sports model started in 1964 as a Fiat 500 base race car. This failed to go anywhere. The idea was brought back to live in 1966. At that years London motorfair the first prototype Unipower (which had a lift off panel was shown), the UK agent(unnamed) stand for Autobianchis was just a few feet away. Bertone where also there. The book ask, the question did they look at Unipower. It appears that the lift off roof panel my be the link, along with the use of off the shelf parts. Which the Runabout does not have, but is on the X1/9.

A friend of mine who's works for another Italian car designer said that they have photos of the Unipower form events in Italy and Britain around 1967-9 in there collation. The book does not say that the Unipower insiped the Fiat X1/9, just hints that it did. Sorry if I made this sound like a fact! I base it on this book and over stated the case a little.

Edited by KDIcarmad on Wednesday 6th June 15:30

[KDIcarmad]

Just post on the Top Gear DeltaWing tribute, real just a Westfield. Link below..

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I jokingly asked if this could become an option from Westfield. It has set me wondering what could be done using a Seven as a starting point. Any ideas?

Could a Seven based car ever be race at LeMans? Yes I know it would be very hard to do, but the Cobra was build up on an old chassis from AC. By Cobra I mean Daytona Coupe. A race 7 coupe! By the way never got the whole Corba thing!

[ajprice]

KDIcarmad said:

Could a Seven based car ever be race at LeMans? Yes I know it would be very hard to do, but the Cobra was build up on an old chassis from AC. By Cobra I mean Daytona Coupe. A race 7 coupe! By the way never got the whole Corba thing!

The Donkervoort D8 took part in the 24hr Dubai race last year, and in European GT4 class racing, against Aston Martin, BMW M3, Porsche 911 etc -
http://www.donkervoort.nl/de/news/follow-the-donke...
http://www.donkervoort.nl/en/donkervoort-racing/do...

[KDIcarmad]

ajprice said:

KDIcarmad said:

Could a Seven based car ever be race at LeMans? Yes I know it would be very hard to do, but the Cobra was build up on an old chassis from AC. By Cobra I mean Daytona Coupe. A race 7 coupe! By the way never got the whole Corba thing!

The Donkervoort D8 took part in the 24hr Dubai race last year, and in European GT4 class racing, against Aston Martin, BMW M3, Porsche 911 etc -
http://www.donkervoort.nl/de/news/follow-the-donke...
http://www.donkervoort.nl/en/donkervoort-racing/do...

A 7 coupe! I know of the Donkervoots, but it is costly, why are not British manufactures take them on? Look at the list of cars they took on Aston Martin, BMW M3 and Porsche 911 with just a clip coupe body at the rear. Design a complete shell with better aerodynamic and you could win GT4. All it needs is a bit of drive.

A British kit car has run at the Le Mans and finished! Yes in 1966 I think, one still holds world records for class performance. I'll name just hint you can still buy them, it FWD and it's big brothers ran at Le Man's in 1990's.

[rdodger]

That would have been the Mini Marcos!

[Ferg]

My father-in-law's best friend raced a Lotus Eleven at Le Mans...with 1098ccs of raw power.

[Stuart Mills]

Many congratulations to all the kit car firms that took part in the Goodwood Festival of Speed, I was only a visitor so I should slap my own wrists for not displaying BUT; the kit car industry was very well represented by RTR with 5 MEV's, Raw, Hawk, V2, GKD and Dragon plus CKC, the kit car area was very very busy. I know RTR sold a MEVABUSA on Friday, I hope others took deposits too.

[KDIcarmad]

Stuart Mills said:

Many congratulations to all the kit car firms that took part in the Goodwood Festival of Speed, I was only a visitor so I should slap my own wrists for not displaying BUT; the kit car industry was very well represented by RTR with 5 MEV's, Raw, Hawk, V2, GKD and Dragon plus CKC, the kit car area was very very busy. I know RTR sold a MEVABUSA on Friday, I hope others took deposits too.

Sadly I have only been to the Goodwood Festival of Speed a few time. It is a great event that clearly is a good place to find new kit car customers. Now how many other events are that would also find you new, first time, kit buyers. I know of one in Crystal Palace park.

[KDIcarmad]

Near to where I live a kit car has been delivered. I saw this and spoke to the buyer/owner a nice bloke. This is his first kit car so I whis Jack well with it.

The car is a monocoque 2+2 coupe hatchback with FWD and good aerodynamics. It styling is current and has a hint back to great kit from the 1980 and 1990's. What do you think this use as a donor? Well the donor went out of 15 years ago. The company that built the donor is also history.

Hopfully most of you have named the donor and the kit car. Well its a Rover 100(Metro) and a Midas Cortez 2+2. This shows the problem with kits very well. I will not go into the history of Midas, but ask a simple question why are they still using this old donor car? The roads are full of supermini and city cars that could be used as donor for an updated Midas.

They are also full of sports models called things like GTI, XR, RS and SRI. A modern design in the Midas style coupe using clever aerodynamics with 2+2 seating and good handeling. At around £4-6000 would be a great buy instead of a secondhad hot hatch. Clealy this is a company that in the past took risks, but is not doing so today. They have become comfitable do what they are doing and do not want to take a risk. If I had the money I would buy the company and built that not car, based on a modern city car and sell them against those secondhand GTI, XR and SRI.

[agcmidas]

KDIcarmad said:

Well its a Rover 100(Metro) and a Midas Cortez 2+2. This shows the problem with kits very well. I will not go into the history of Midas, but ask a simple question why are they still using this old donor car?

As one of the directors of Alternative Cars Ltd, the current custodians of the Midas marque, I think I am well placed to answer your question.

There are various reasons why none of the more modern cars make a better donor than the Rover 100/Metro.

The primary reason is that Metro features front and rear subframes that locate the suspension and drivetrain together as a neat package. This means that the loads can be fed into the Midas monocoque, whilst combining compliance for a good ride with excellent suspension control for good handling. Midas was not the only company to see understand the benefits of this system: Lotus incorporated similar subframes in the design of their FWD, composite monocoque, Elan (M100) and at the time of the launch admitted that they had been inspired to use this system after developing the MG Metro Turbo for Austin-Rover. What is less well known was that, during the development of the M100 Elan, General Motors (then the major shareholder in Lotus) purchased a pair of Midas Golds "for evaluation"
Of course it would be possible for us to make our own subframe to accept the drivetrains from other small hatches, but that would add to the cost of the kit. This was one reason why the GTM Libra/Spyder was much more expensive than the Midas.

Another good reason to use the Rover 100/Metro as a donor is that it features the great little K-series engine. Yes, the much maligned K-series! It is true that the later and larger K-series engines deserved their bad reputation, but that all happened after the last Rover 100 rolled off the production line. The smaller engines as fitted to the Metros and 100s did not suffer from the same overheating woes and were not afflicted by the penny pinching ways of the Phoenix group (plastic head dowels and cheaper head gaskets, really ) In truth the K-series was a truly advanced engine, that still beats many more modern engines, brought down by cost accountants and larger capacity versions developed by engineers that did not appear to understand much of the thinking behind the original design. Rant over!

And finally Rover 100s are still readily and cheaply available. Isn't that what we all look for in a good donor?


You also raise another point in that you see us as a company that is not taking many risks today. In that we are not taking many risks with the Midas marque this is true. We purchased the assets of Midas from the liquidators of the previous company that had lasted less than 2 years. Our main purpose has been to keep the marque going and meet the needs of existing owners. We have managed to do just that since the start of 2004.

What you may not be aware of is that we are also the owners of Deronda Cars Ltd. This came about after we had identified the track day market as the area offering the greatest potential. In fact we had started making plans for a track day Midas, but before this got off the drawing board (okay I was using CAD, but you know what I mean) I was introduced to Andy Round and his Deronda project. Apart from having an exoskeletal spaceframe chassis, where our Midas design featured a composite monocoque, the Deronda ticked all the boxes. I could go on to list all the features of the Deronda that go to make it such a great track car, but I suspect that would be deemed to be advertising and then my posting may be pulled.

So recently we may appear to have been risk averse with Midas, but then a project like the Deronda carries enough risks for any company. However, that is not to say that we have no plans to take the Midas forward into the future.

AGC

[KDIcarmad]

Thank you for this reply. It does explain why you still use the Rover 100. I agree with you on the K-series engine. As Lotus using Midas for the M100 Elan, did not know this. A bloke near to where I use to work had one, claim great handling, but to big to be real fun.

[Dreams'n'Trikes]

KDIcarmad said:

Thank you for this reply. It does explain why you still use the Rover 100. I agree with you on the K-series engine. As Lotus using Midas for the M100 Elan, did not know this. A bloke near to where I use to work had one, claim great handling, but to big to be real fun.

My daughter in law owner a Midas Gold coupe from the 90's, a fun car. Having seen the 2+2 this car seems a retro step after the Gold. Less style to it than the Gold. The Gold does feel a little old in design terms, but the 2+2 has a blandness to it.

It's claim that cost, for the buy, has stop the move to a more modern donor feels a little like why change it works. My trike Roar used the sub frame engine from a VW Golf GTi(very sadly sold to fund my Lexus V8 trike). It was a sod to get the pick up points right. I build that in 2000 and it was fun, most car to day have a sub-frame. Looking around I know I could design a new monocoque car round any number of sub-frame out there. In fact I am working on an idea for a trike monocoque and have yet to design on power.