W124 estate advice
Discussion
I'm contemplating an early 90's E-class estate to cart myself to various sporting events over the summer (most in this country but one in the south of France) with a budget in the region of £1500. Bar the reputation for tank-like construction and reliability, I don't know much about them and would appreciate any advice or suggestions from those with experience. Am I asking for trouble or can reliable shed-territory motoring be had?
First, they're great. They are very well-designed for the job of carrying people and possessions in style, safety and comfort, over distance great and small, around town or over challenging roads at speed if necessary. They also have a cult following: drivers of 124 estates wave at each other.
Second, they're all old now. The youngest (1995) is 17 years old. The eldest (1986) is over quarter of a century.
Third, they are very popular.
Fourth, they are extremely well-built.
Add together these three things and you may find your budget does not get you very far. The biggest problem for you, paradoxically, is 4. Because they are so well-built, they take a hell of a lot of abuse. They get run into the ground. Many have been used as glorified builder's vans. Combine their robustness with their age and you will find a lot of cars have a big backlog of outstanding maintenance. Sure, they have had the oil and filter changed every 9,000miles and, sure, there is a MOT certificate for everyone of the last 20 years, but the shocks, spheres and rubber bushings may all be well past their best.
Your budget will get you a serviceable petrol-powered car. There's a range of engines but the big difference is whether it has six cylinders (smooth, fast, thirsty) or four cylinders (less smooth, less fast, less thirsty but also possibly less money). A six will give 20 to 25mpg. A four will give 24 to 29mpg. You might get more out of either on that long 85mph run to the south of France.
These are the things you need to be on the look out for, most serious first:
(1) Rough running motor: this indicates a bad wiring harness. Most will have been replaced by now. It's a good sign if the history shows a new one at anytime since manufacture.
(2) Bouncy rear suspension: this indicates bad rear spheres.
(3) Wandering at the rear: this indicates worn rear suspension bushes.
(4) Oil leaks and/or oil and water mixing: this indicates a bad cylinder head gasket.
(5) Uncomfortable seat. If you're driving all the way to the souuth of France, you don't want a car that has had a fat man at the wheel for 250,000miles.
(6) Leaking sunroof: this indicates rusted up sunroof drains and it will drip on you.
(7) Rust. It looks bad but it's not the end of the world. All of the cars in your budget will have rust nibbling at the front wheelarches, perhaps the rears and possibly the tailgate.
Others with greater expertise than me will no doubt chime in and correct me where I am wrong. For me, the giveaway sign of a good car is originality (orange indicators on a pre-1993 car, no silly wheels, no silly grilles) and tyres (good quality matching tyres tell you the owner has cared for it).
Second, they're all old now. The youngest (1995) is 17 years old. The eldest (1986) is over quarter of a century.
Third, they are very popular.
Fourth, they are extremely well-built.
Add together these three things and you may find your budget does not get you very far. The biggest problem for you, paradoxically, is 4. Because they are so well-built, they take a hell of a lot of abuse. They get run into the ground. Many have been used as glorified builder's vans. Combine their robustness with their age and you will find a lot of cars have a big backlog of outstanding maintenance. Sure, they have had the oil and filter changed every 9,000miles and, sure, there is a MOT certificate for everyone of the last 20 years, but the shocks, spheres and rubber bushings may all be well past their best.
Your budget will get you a serviceable petrol-powered car. There's a range of engines but the big difference is whether it has six cylinders (smooth, fast, thirsty) or four cylinders (less smooth, less fast, less thirsty but also possibly less money). A six will give 20 to 25mpg. A four will give 24 to 29mpg. You might get more out of either on that long 85mph run to the south of France.
These are the things you need to be on the look out for, most serious first:
(1) Rough running motor: this indicates a bad wiring harness. Most will have been replaced by now. It's a good sign if the history shows a new one at anytime since manufacture.
(2) Bouncy rear suspension: this indicates bad rear spheres.
(3) Wandering at the rear: this indicates worn rear suspension bushes.
(4) Oil leaks and/or oil and water mixing: this indicates a bad cylinder head gasket.
(5) Uncomfortable seat. If you're driving all the way to the souuth of France, you don't want a car that has had a fat man at the wheel for 250,000miles.
(6) Leaking sunroof: this indicates rusted up sunroof drains and it will drip on you.
(7) Rust. It looks bad but it's not the end of the world. All of the cars in your budget will have rust nibbling at the front wheelarches, perhaps the rears and possibly the tailgate.
Others with greater expertise than me will no doubt chime in and correct me where I am wrong. For me, the giveaway sign of a good car is originality (orange indicators on a pre-1993 car, no silly wheels, no silly grilles) and tyres (good quality matching tyres tell you the owner has cared for it).
...basically what he said. But I've never had another 124 estate driver wave at me, maybe because I'm too big and beardy! But yeah, you'll be most likely looking at a petrol, as the diesels are rarer, have very few of the engine problems/complexity of the petrols and do go on forever, and command a price premium. I bought a diesel estate in 2004 and it's still my main car at 222k.
It is possible to get a low-ish mileage, good condition petrol for your budget, but it'll have to be from somewhere like ebay or a private sale- traders have cottoned on to the popularity of these cars and bumped the prices up for decent (and fairly average) cars accordingly. There was a nice E280 estate near me that went for £1100, I've bought a good E280 for £900 before...
The 6-cylinder petrol engines are all nice and are quite thirsty, the later 24v versions less so than the earlier 12v. I get 33-40mpg in my diesel depending how and where I'm driving it. I haven't driven any of the four pots, as I like the smoothness of a in-line 6. The 6-pot 24v petrols are known for head gasket and wiring harness problems.
Service history is a must with these cars, they are extremely well built but complex too for their age in certain areas, and you can suddenly find yourself with a big bill for something- like r129 said they'll get abused 'cause they'll run even with something broken. I do all my own mechanicals unless it's something that needs to go on a lift, and parts aren't that expensive.
Like r129 said avoid anything that's been 'boyed up'- i.e. big star on the front grille, wrong wheels, dubious interior.
I think the only other area r129 hasn't mentioned are the jacking points- these are covered by little plastic flaps which just pop off- they tend to rust under here and if the jack holes are rusted then there'll be plenty more rust covered by the plastic sills.
Plenty of info here:
http://w124.co.uk/info.html
It is possible to get a low-ish mileage, good condition petrol for your budget, but it'll have to be from somewhere like ebay or a private sale- traders have cottoned on to the popularity of these cars and bumped the prices up for decent (and fairly average) cars accordingly. There was a nice E280 estate near me that went for £1100, I've bought a good E280 for £900 before...
The 6-cylinder petrol engines are all nice and are quite thirsty, the later 24v versions less so than the earlier 12v. I get 33-40mpg in my diesel depending how and where I'm driving it. I haven't driven any of the four pots, as I like the smoothness of a in-line 6. The 6-pot 24v petrols are known for head gasket and wiring harness problems.
Service history is a must with these cars, they are extremely well built but complex too for their age in certain areas, and you can suddenly find yourself with a big bill for something- like r129 said they'll get abused 'cause they'll run even with something broken. I do all my own mechanicals unless it's something that needs to go on a lift, and parts aren't that expensive.
Like r129 said avoid anything that's been 'boyed up'- i.e. big star on the front grille, wrong wheels, dubious interior.
I think the only other area r129 hasn't mentioned are the jacking points- these are covered by little plastic flaps which just pop off- they tend to rust under here and if the jack holes are rusted then there'll be plenty more rust covered by the plastic sills.
Plenty of info here:
http://w124.co.uk/info.html
Edited by chazola on Friday 4th May 18:58
Cheers for taking the time to write such a thorough reply. Love the tip about avoiding one with evidence of overweight ownership! This has caught my eye if I can get the chap to budge on price: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/150808697249?_trksid=p51...
If I end up taking the plunge I'll let you know how I get on.
All the best, Jon
If I end up taking the plunge I'll let you know how I get on.
All the best, Jon
The numbers are starting to fall rapidly - in daily use. We are on holiday for two weeks and a daily challenge is to 124 spot - sad I know - and a
.A couple of years ago you could count on an S124 a day. Now we are happy with any 124. Mind you - Speyside is all RangeRover - although one new G Wagen was a delight.
That accords with my experience but I am quite fanatical about my cars being perfect. My 320 TE cost me about £2-3k a year in maintenance, repair and tyres. I did about 15,000 miles a year in it. The problem is the backlog maintenance. Very few owners bother to replace the rear sub-frame bushes, the rear suspension links, the rear spheres, the front shocks, the front lower control arms, wheel bearings, engine mounts and so on and on. Mine had settled down into very cheap motoring, though. I think int he last year it cost less than £1,000. And then my dear wife finished it off.
r129sl said:
That accords with my experience but I am quite fanatical about my cars being perfect. My 320 TE cost me about £2-3k a year in maintenance, repair and tyres. I did about 15,000 miles a year in it.
This is why I would avoid the facelift 280/320's. The earlier cars have the bulletproof 4spd autobox, no dodgy wiring harness and are generally better built. I could have rebuilt my diesel for one year of your maintenance, it was such a simple car.ClassicMercs said:
The numbers are starting to fall rapidly - in daily use.
SuperHangOn said:
r129sl said:
That accords with my experience but I am quite fanatical about my cars being perfect. My 320 TE cost me about £2-3k a year in maintenance, repair and tyres. I did about 15,000 miles a year in it.
This is why I would avoid the facelift 280/320's. The earlier cars have the bulletproof 4spd autobox, no dodgy wiring harness and are generally better built. I could have rebuilt my diesel for one year of your maintenance, it was such a simple car.ClassicMercs said:
The numbers are starting to fall rapidly - in daily use.
M104 wiring looms will degrade , however they can be re-wired pretty cheaply . It`s obviously a labour intensive job , but at the end of the day , its just wire and insulation .
My C36 was done last year for under £200 .
Feel free to contact me for details of my chap in North Yorkshire who does this type of thing !
My C36 was done last year for under £200 .
Feel free to contact me for details of my chap in North Yorkshire who does this type of thing !
Had my '93 280TE for a year now and absolutely love it, it is so smooth and comfortable. I can't see we'll ever sell it.
Only niggle is the condensation over the winter which gets pretty severe and also kicks off mould in the fold down rear seats. Heating is pretty pathetic as is the windscreen wiper
Only niggle is the condensation over the winter which gets pretty severe and also kicks off mould in the fold down rear seats. Heating is pretty pathetic as is the windscreen wiper
Edited by JimmyJam on Saturday 12th May 21:58
JimmyJam said:
Had my '93 280TE for a year now and absolutely love it, it is so smooth and comfortable. I can't see we'll ever sell it.
Only niggle is the condensation over the winter which gets pretty severe and also kicks off mould in the fold down rear seats. Heating is pretty pathetic as is the windscreen wiper
It is possibly leaking at either the sunroof drains or the rear side windows. The heating problem may be a bad duo valve.Only niggle is the condensation over the winter which gets pretty severe and also kicks off mould in the fold down rear seats. Heating is pretty pathetic as is the windscreen wiper
Edited by JimmyJam on Saturday 12th May 21:58
If the car steams up after you start it there will be lots of water inside it. I use a dehumidifier to dry the car out & then go looking for leaks. They are usually from the heater drain assembly under the windscreen, sunroof drains, a/c drains, rear window leaks and holes in the floor in the rear underfloor storage
The heating should be fantastic - if it's not you may have pump or duovalve problem
A good one will be great to drive and not expensive to run. Most of the faults you will come across will be down to lack of maintenance rather than anything else
Nick Froome
The heating should be fantastic - if it's not you may have pump or duovalve problem
A good one will be great to drive and not expensive to run. Most of the faults you will come across will be down to lack of maintenance rather than anything else
Nick Froome
Edited by bolide on Wednesday 16th May 20:28
Had a semi-facelift 1993 300TD for a few years, great car, highly recommended.
In 2009 it sold in seconds on Ebay for not hugely less than I paid for it despite 290k miles and a disintegrating front wing (only had one replaced due to a knock, never got round to the other one).
I got bushings, prop joint, engine mounts etc. replaced which made a big difference to smoothness, and a new grille, aerial motor and window motor made it look and work (almost - outside temp gauge never worked!) as it did when it was new, offside front wing excepted.
The sills on mine were beginning to concern me a bit (lot of gunk under the flaps like another poster mentioned, no real signs of real structural rusting but you never know), but the interior and oily bits felt like they could take another 300k miles.
Probably had to budget £1k a year for maintenance, it gave about 30mpg. Had no qualms taking it to Europe on holidays, it felt really at home on the autobahn. In fact, few cars I've been in are as comfortable at 80mph, especially when considering the weedy (120-130bhp) engine.
In 2009 it sold in seconds on Ebay for not hugely less than I paid for it despite 290k miles and a disintegrating front wing (only had one replaced due to a knock, never got round to the other one).
I got bushings, prop joint, engine mounts etc. replaced which made a big difference to smoothness, and a new grille, aerial motor and window motor made it look and work (almost - outside temp gauge never worked!) as it did when it was new, offside front wing excepted.
The sills on mine were beginning to concern me a bit (lot of gunk under the flaps like another poster mentioned, no real signs of real structural rusting but you never know), but the interior and oily bits felt like they could take another 300k miles.
Probably had to budget £1k a year for maintenance, it gave about 30mpg. Had no qualms taking it to Europe on holidays, it felt really at home on the autobahn. In fact, few cars I've been in are as comfortable at 80mph, especially when considering the weedy (120-130bhp) engine.
The old 250 / 300TD models are great, and the engines bullet-proof, but the later E300 Diesels with the multivalve 606 engine are much nicer to drive. They still feel like a car from another era but the Multivalves have a lot more snap
I don't agree with the argument to favour the early cars over late ones. The later E280 and E320 petrol engines are a lot more economical than the 300TE. The E220 engine is a little rough & gravelly but it's a willing thing. To my surprise an E200 is as good as an E220 and definitely has a smoother engine
Overall the later cars feel more modern and the cloth interiors are nicer though a bit less hard-wearing. Yes, a new wiring loom is in the future of all cars with a M104 engine (E280 & E320), but so are new tyres, suspension spheres, back boxes, etc. You'll only have to replace it once. Post-93 cars all had twin airbags - though you'll find the occasional 93 car without the passenger bag
The 5-speed box was an option on all six-cylinder petrol cars from 1991 so predates the facelift
Buy a 1996 car and you'll have 7 seats, probably remote locking, a/c and sunroof, etc
Nick Froome
I don't agree with the argument to favour the early cars over late ones. The later E280 and E320 petrol engines are a lot more economical than the 300TE. The E220 engine is a little rough & gravelly but it's a willing thing. To my surprise an E200 is as good as an E220 and definitely has a smoother engine
Overall the later cars feel more modern and the cloth interiors are nicer though a bit less hard-wearing. Yes, a new wiring loom is in the future of all cars with a M104 engine (E280 & E320), but so are new tyres, suspension spheres, back boxes, etc. You'll only have to replace it once. Post-93 cars all had twin airbags - though you'll find the occasional 93 car without the passenger bag
The 5-speed box was an option on all six-cylinder petrol cars from 1991 so predates the facelift
Buy a 1996 car and you'll have 7 seats, probably remote locking, a/c and sunroof, etc
Nick Froome
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