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Mc F

322 posts

149 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
996ttalot said:
Roll on video of a 9E tuned (around 520-mark) 996 Turbo S against our 9E25 car. The 996 Turbo S hit 189gps and is a quick car, but you can see the difference...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJdSVrzTOdQ&fea...

I was on half throttle, licking an ice cream & talking to the camera man, with the top down......enough excuses?...alright the Vikings car is fxxkxx quick biggrin

Another great day H, although the journey home was a little more sedate this time. cool

I am well happy with a true 189mph car that will keep most exotica straight on the road.biglaugh

996ttalot

1,854 posts

61 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
Mc F said:
I was on half throttle, licking an ice cream & talking to the camera man, with the top down......enough excuses?...alright the Vikings car is fxxkxx quick biggrin

Another great day H, although the journey home was a little more sedate this time. cool

I am well happy with a true 189mph car that will keep most exotica straight on the road.biglaugh
If you had cleaned the car it would have been closer hehe

911Viking

Original Poster:

223 posts

30 months

[news] 
Monday 28th May 2012 quote quote all
Mc F said:
996ttalot said:
Roll on video of a 9E tuned (around 520-mark) 996 Turbo S against our 9E25 car. The 996 Turbo S hit 189gps and is a quick car, but you can see the difference...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJdSVrzTOdQ&fea...

I was on half throttle, licking an ice cream & talking to the camera man, with the top down......enough excuses?...alright the Vikings car is fxxkxx quick biggrin

Another great day H, although the journey home was a little more sedate this time. cool

I am well happy with a true 189mph car that will keep most exotica straight on the road.biglaugh
I stayed off boost to give you a fair shot... FT Denmark - Ireland 1 - 0 shoot
You are right, return ride last time was a little more determined. Look forward to duel next time beer

GFWilliams

4,494 posts

93 months

[news] 
Wednesday 30th May 2012 quote quote all
Had a really good day out with 9E and very impressive results!

Silver car is the 9E25 and the black car is a tuned 520hp 996 Turbo S from 9E















Here's a little video I got:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myiRFQlNJwM

George smile

Edited by GFWilliams on Wednesday 30th May 16:56

911Viking

Original Poster:

223 posts

30 months

[news] 
Wednesday 30th May 2012 quote quote all
GFWilliams said:
Had a really good day out with 9E and very impressive results!

Silver car is the 9E25 and the black car is a tuned 520hp 996 Turbo S from 9E


Here's a little video I got:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myiRFQlNJwM

George smile

Edited by GFWilliams on Wednesday 30th May 16:56
Great shots and videos George, I was particularly impressed with you hanging out on the side of Anthony's hair dresser top down doing 150+ mph smokin

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911Viking

Original Poster:

223 posts

30 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Doing a few little suspension and brake mods to the toy with 9e... Will be good fun getting her to Vmax Black, so we can see if she can still match 206 mph on Brunters biglaugh

Arenki

211 posts

55 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Met both yourself and your car when I had my banana yellow C4S down at 9E for a brake pad replacement. Looks truly stunning in the video and pictures! (still need to get my leaky suspension replaced. it's utterly borked banghead )

IMI A

3,048 posts

87 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
996ttalot said:
IMI A said:
996ttalot said:
You can ring and ask Jim or Graham on the gate. It is better that you go with others because during the week whilst it is quiet most of the times, it really does help having someone else to look out for traffic etc. There is the full circuit and a shorter version that joins on to the main circuit which can be an issue at high speeds.

We are there pretty regularly at the moment and will be quite a lot next month testing new 997 packages. Drop me a message and we can organise something.

Ken
Ken, what are the new 997 packages in terms of goals you've set yourself?

KR

Imi
Several goals actually. All with the same methodology as we do on the 996 turbos - real world performance backed by proper testing results.

1. To have an effective simple upgrade without changing the VTGs - so just remap + y-pipe replacement + intercoolers - performance to be in the region of 540-550hp backed up by 0-300kph times

2. VTG hybrids (gen 1 based VTG) - remap, y-pipe, IPD, TB and intercoolers - performance to be in the region of 580-640 (quite a wide range dependant on boost, backed up by 0-320kph times

3. VTG hybrids (gen 2 based VTG) - package being worked on, but moving towards 600-650hp range performance, backed up by 0-320kph times

4. Non VTG - we already have these packages right up to extreme high hp.

5. PDK upgrade - currently being worked on in terms of increasing the strength of the box

6. Tiptronic upgrade - Hold more power


Status

1. Available

2. Available and being fitted to test car in next 4 weeks - Our VTG Hybrids are different to what is available on the market - the issue with VTG is heat.

- One resolution is to increase the VTG Housing (turbine) size - larger the VTG housing the better at heat control. However issue is cost - you need to start with the VTGs that are in the 997GT2RS, and you cannot buy the housing either from Porsche or direct from manufacturer. So the cost goes up because you need to buy these turbos first and they are over £2k each.
- Our resolution is to flow more, but run less boost. So we have a hybrid VTG completed, that flows 5 lbs more per turbo than those on the GT2RS (620ps) with standard VTG housing. The GT2RS runs at up to 1.6 bar, so we are planning to run at 1.2 bar. Clearly we can run higher for example in sport mode and so on.
- package is being run in the next few weeks.

3. Hybrid not completed yet, but spec'd with our turbo builder already. Not far away.

4. Easy solution, just dump the VTGs and we can provide whatever level of power is required. For example the 9E25 package will work straight on to a 997 turbo

5. The nightmare for all tuners at the moment. You can put in a 1000hp engine+turbo package and it will still run no faster than a package at the 600hp engine+turbo package - PDK reduces power automatically on slip.

6. Available - both hardware and software solution.

Engine builds for gen 1 and gt2rs are already available including increased capacity.

997 tuning is more expensive than 996 tuning - as always the newer the model the more that cost is for tuning. We will look at whether that is justified.
any news on your hybrids Ken?

996ttalot

1,854 posts

61 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
IMI A said:
996ttalot said:
IMI A said:
996ttalot said:
You can ring and ask Jim or Graham on the gate. It is better that you go with others because during the week whilst it is quiet most of the times, it really does help having someone else to look out for traffic etc. There is the full circuit and a shorter version that joins on to the main circuit which can be an issue at high speeds.

We are there pretty regularly at the moment and will be quite a lot next month testing new 997 packages. Drop me a message and we can organise something.

Ken
Ken, what are the new 997 packages in terms of goals you've set yourself?

KR

Imi
Several goals actually. All with the same methodology as we do on the 996 turbos - real world performance backed by proper testing results.

1. To have an effective simple upgrade without changing the VTGs - so just remap + y-pipe replacement + intercoolers - performance to be in the region of 540-550hp backed up by 0-300kph times

2. VTG hybrids (gen 1 based VTG) - remap, y-pipe, IPD, TB and intercoolers - performance to be in the region of 580-640 (quite a wide range dependant on boost, backed up by 0-320kph times

3. VTG hybrids (gen 2 based VTG) - package being worked on, but moving towards 600-650hp range performance, backed up by 0-320kph times

4. Non VTG - we already have these packages right up to extreme high hp.

5. PDK upgrade - currently being worked on in terms of increasing the strength of the box

6. Tiptronic upgrade - Hold more power


Status

1. Available

2. Available and being fitted to test car in next 4 weeks - Our VTG Hybrids are different to what is available on the market - the issue with VTG is heat.

- One resolution is to increase the VTG Housing (turbine) size - larger the VTG housing the better at heat control. However issue is cost - you need to start with the VTGs that are in the 997GT2RS, and you cannot buy the housing either from Porsche or direct from manufacturer. So the cost goes up because you need to buy these turbos first and they are over £2k each.
- Our resolution is to flow more, but run less boost. So we have a hybrid VTG completed, that flows 5 lbs more per turbo than those on the GT2RS (620ps) with standard VTG housing. The GT2RS runs at up to 1.6 bar, so we are planning to run at 1.2 bar. Clearly we can run higher for example in sport mode and so on.
- package is being run in the next few weeks.

3. Hybrid not completed yet, but spec'd with our turbo builder already. Not far away.

4. Easy solution, just dump the VTGs and we can provide whatever level of power is required. For example the 9E25 package will work straight on to a 997 turbo

5. The nightmare for all tuners at the moment. You can put in a 1000hp engine+turbo package and it will still run no faster than a package at the 600hp engine+turbo package - PDK reduces power automatically on slip.

6. Available - both hardware and software solution.

Engine builds for gen 1 and gt2rs are already available including increased capacity.

997 tuning is more expensive than 996 tuning - as always the newer the model the more that cost is for tuning. We will look at whether that is justified.
any news on your hybrids Ken?
Hi Imi,

What other tuners don't want to say, I will about 997 Tuning. It has been a long road and what I have been saying all along when people say "it is a great map and had no issues" has proved that this statement does not tell the true story.

The 997 Turbo DME is extremely (and I don't use that word lightly) knock sensitive compared to the 996 Turbo DME. Whilst the gen 1 997 engine is basically the same as the 996 Turbo engine except in simple terms for the VTGs against conventional turbos, the 997 DME causes no end of issues.

When I have been critical before about tunes which give the concept of the car being faster, but then slower after 120-130mph this has been confirmed by our datalogs. It is quite simply, too much boost generating too much heat means the 997 DME richens the mixtures (and thereby reduces power) as soon as either intake temps (IATs) or Exhaust Gas Temp (EGT) rise above preset levels. Furthermore the 997 DME is very knock sensitive re Octane.

Our GT2RS VTGs run amazing to 120/130mph at 1.5 bar of boost, but then the DME pulls back. At 1.3 bar they are fine. We will increase the octane content at 1.5 bar using acqamist system. Previously testing at Brunters showed 193gps with 0-100 in less than 7 seconds. We want this car running 200gps, which is will do provided octane levels are good.

Standard VTGs hybrids are completed and run well - they provide around the 580hp performance mark.

We have finalised tuning for 540hp type performance without knocking, including some additional hardware.

Quite simply the VTGs themselves are only one part of the issue - they do generate more heat, but the 997 DME is the main problem.

Switching to non VTGs will provide whatever level of hp you desire based on budget, but it also involves programming the 997 DME more like a 996 DME. Since it is the same engine, then there are no issues.

When people say that get 580-600hp from tuning on just standard car, they are frankly talking rubbish - on the dyno you may with just a third gear pull get that reading, but on the road, go about 120mph and see what happens.

This is why only running the car to 300kph (186mph) shows the true picture of tuning. People say well I never run the car near that speed and that is fine, but the point here forget about the BS claims of hp.

This is why Toby's 997 car is 100k Euro conversion - it runs around 730ps and even then reduces boost when the DME starts it work.

So yes, we have made a lot of progress, and we now have packages that do deliver. It is hard marketing a product at certain levels of "hp" compared to higher claims, but we know that on the road ours deliver.

Ken

911Viking

Original Poster:

223 posts

30 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Ken have you done any tuning to the Gen 2 997T engine yet? I am hearing from French and NL tuners that you gotta be a little careful, the engine supposedly is not as strong as the Mezger engine.

911Viking

Original Poster:

223 posts

30 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
Arenki said:
Met both yourself and your car when I had my banana yellow C4S down at 9E for a brake pad replacement. Looks truly stunning in the video and pictures! (still need to get my leaky suspension replaced. it's utterly borked banghead )
Was nice chatting Dave, think you gotta get onto a T 911 next time around whistle

996ttalot

1,854 posts

61 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
911Viking said:
Ken have you done any tuning to the Gen 2 997T engine yet? I am hearing from French and NL tuners that you gotta be a little careful, the engine supposedly is not as strong as the Mezger engine.
The gen 2 is yet to be proven - I know of at least one engine that bust a gut at around 550hp, so we are being careful on them - time will tell.

911Viking

Original Poster:

223 posts

30 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
996ttalot said:
911Viking said:
Ken have you done any tuning to the Gen 2 997T engine yet? I am hearing from French and NL tuners that you gotta be a little careful, the engine supposedly is not as strong as the Mezger engine.
The gen 2 is yet to be proven - I know of at least one engine that bust a gut at around 550hp, so we are being careful on them - time will tell.
Would be a shame if Porsche goes down the spaghetti car route ending up giving us fragile engines that can't take a little beefing up without going hurl

ZeroH

2,584 posts

75 months

[news] 
Wednesday 10th October 2012 quote quote all
996ttalot said:
Hi Imi,

What other tuners don't want to say, I will about 997 Tuning. It has been a long road and what I have been saying all along when people say "it is a great map and had no issues" has proved that this statement does not tell the true story.

The 997 Turbo DME is extremely (and I don't use that word lightly) knock sensitive compared to the 996 Turbo DME. Whilst the gen 1 997 engine is basically the same as the 996 Turbo engine except in simple terms for the VTGs against conventional turbos, the 997 DME causes no end of issues.

When I have been critical before about tunes which give the concept of the car being faster, but then slower after 120-130mph this has been confirmed by our datalogs. It is quite simply, too much boost generating too much heat means the 997 DME richens the mixtures (and thereby reduces power) as soon as either intake temps (IATs) or Exhaust Gas Temp (EGT) rise above preset levels. Furthermore the 997 DME is very knock sensitive re Octane.

Our GT2RS VTGs run amazing to 120/130mph at 1.5 bar of boost, but then the DME pulls back. At 1.3 bar they are fine. We will increase the octane content at 1.5 bar using acqamist system. Previously testing at Brunters showed 193gps with 0-100 in less than 7 seconds. We want this car running 200gps, which is will do provided octane levels are good.

Standard VTGs hybrids are completed and run well - they provide around the 580hp performance mark.

We have finalised tuning for 540hp type performance without knocking, including some additional hardware.

Quite simply the VTGs themselves are only one part of the issue - they do generate more heat, but the 997 DME is the main problem.

Switching to non VTGs will provide whatever level of hp you desire based on budget, but it also involves programming the 997 DME more like a 996 DME. Since it is the same engine, then there are no issues.

When people say that get 580-600hp from tuning on just standard car, they are frankly talking rubbish - on the dyno you may with just a third gear pull get that reading, but on the road, go about 120mph and see what happens.

This is why only running the car to 300kph (186mph) shows the true picture of tuning. People say well I never run the car near that speed and that is fine, but the point here forget about the BS claims of hp.

This is why Toby's 997 car is 100k Euro conversion - it runs around 730ps and even then reduces boost when the DME starts it work.

So yes, we have made a lot of progress, and we now have packages that do deliver. It is hard marketing a product at certain levels of "hp" compared to higher claims, but we know that on the road ours deliver.

Ken
Nice post mate.

IMI A

3,048 posts

87 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
ZeroH said:
996ttalot said:
Hi Imi,

What other tuners don't want to say, I will about 997 Tuning. It has been a long road and what I have been saying all along when people say "it is a great map and had no issues" has proved that this statement does not tell the true story.

The 997 Turbo DME is extremely (and I don't use that word lightly) knock sensitive compared to the 996 Turbo DME. Whilst the gen 1 997 engine is basically the same as the 996 Turbo engine except in simple terms for the VTGs against conventional turbos, the 997 DME causes no end of issues.

When I have been critical before about tunes which give the concept of the car being faster, but then slower after 120-130mph this has been confirmed by our datalogs. It is quite simply, too much boost generating too much heat means the 997 DME richens the mixtures (and thereby reduces power) as soon as either intake temps (IATs) or Exhaust Gas Temp (EGT) rise above preset levels. Furthermore the 997 DME is very knock sensitive re Octane.

Our GT2RS VTGs run amazing to 120/130mph at 1.5 bar of boost, but then the DME pulls back. At 1.3 bar they are fine. We will increase the octane content at 1.5 bar using acqamist system. Previously testing at Brunters showed 193gps with 0-100 in less than 7 seconds. We want this car running 200gps, which is will do provided octane levels are good.

Standard VTGs hybrids are completed and run well - they provide around the 580hp performance mark.

We have finalised tuning for 540hp type performance without knocking, including some additional hardware.

Quite simply the VTGs themselves are only one part of the issue - they do generate more heat, but the 997 DME is the main problem.

Switching to non VTGs will provide whatever level of hp you desire based on budget, but it also involves programming the 997 DME more like a 996 DME. Since it is the same engine, then there are no issues.

When people say that get 580-600hp from tuning on just standard car, they are frankly talking rubbish - on the dyno you may with just a third gear pull get that reading, but on the road, go about 120mph and see what happens.

This is why only running the car to 300kph (186mph) shows the true picture of tuning. People say well I never run the car near that speed and that is fine, but the point here forget about the BS claims of hp.

This is why Toby's 997 car is 100k Euro conversion - it runs around 730ps and even then reduces boost when the DME starts it work.

So yes, we have made a lot of progress, and we now have packages that do deliver. It is hard marketing a product at certain levels of "hp" compared to higher claims, but we know that on the road ours deliver.

Ken
Nice post mate.
Yes even mighty GT2 RS in hot conditions was struggling to put out more than 500 bhp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ctbLPlaf2g . Does make you wonder whether its worth going for the extra power in a 997

996ttalot

1,854 posts

61 months

[news] 
Thursday 11th October 2012 quote quote all
IMI A said:
ZeroH said:
996ttalot said:
Hi Imi,

What other tuners don't want to say, I will about 997 Tuning. It has been a long road and what I have been saying all along when people say "it is a great map and had no issues" has proved that this statement does not tell the true story.

The 997 Turbo DME is extremely (and I don't use that word lightly) knock sensitive compared to the 996 Turbo DME. Whilst the gen 1 997 engine is basically the same as the 996 Turbo engine except in simple terms for the VTGs against conventional turbos, the 997 DME causes no end of issues.

When I have been critical before about tunes which give the concept of the car being faster, but then slower after 120-130mph this has been confirmed by our datalogs. It is quite simply, too much boost generating too much heat means the 997 DME richens the mixtures (and thereby reduces power) as soon as either intake temps (IATs) or Exhaust Gas Temp (EGT) rise above preset levels. Furthermore the 997 DME is very knock sensitive re Octane.

Our GT2RS VTGs run amazing to 120/130mph at 1.5 bar of boost, but then the DME pulls back. At 1.3 bar they are fine. We will increase the octane content at 1.5 bar using acqamist system. Previously testing at Brunters showed 193gps with 0-100 in less than 7 seconds. We want this car running 200gps, which is will do provided octane levels are good.

Standard VTGs hybrids are completed and run well - they provide around the 580hp performance mark.

We have finalised tuning for 540hp type performance without knocking, including some additional hardware.

Quite simply the VTGs themselves are only one part of the issue - they do generate more heat, but the 997 DME is the main problem.

Switching to non VTGs will provide whatever level of hp you desire based on budget, but it also involves programming the 997 DME more like a 996 DME. Since it is the same engine, then there are no issues.

When people say that get 580-600hp from tuning on just standard car, they are frankly talking rubbish - on the dyno you may with just a third gear pull get that reading, but on the road, go about 120mph and see what happens.

This is why only running the car to 300kph (186mph) shows the true picture of tuning. People say well I never run the car near that speed and that is fine, but the point here forget about the BS claims of hp.

This is why Toby's 997 car is 100k Euro conversion - it runs around 730ps and even then reduces boost when the DME starts it work.

So yes, we have made a lot of progress, and we now have packages that do deliver. It is hard marketing a product at certain levels of "hp" compared to higher claims, but we know that on the road ours deliver.

Ken
Nice post mate.
Yes even mighty GT2 RS in hot conditions was struggling to put out more than 500 bhp http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ctbLPlaf2g . Does make you wonder whether its worth going for the extra power in a 997
Great video and how nice of the police to close the streets for him.

As Porsche admitted themselves with Ambient Temps (AT) are high, you can lose as much as 70-80hp in the car. So if you increase the boost, even with lower AT, you are effectively hitting the same issues with VTGs. We even in our test car fitted the GT2RS intercoolers to our hybrids to improve the cooling, even though they are more restrictive than the standard 997 intercoolers.

So you have a couple of choices
- fit hybrid vtgs and run lower boost to keep the Intake Temps (IATs) under control
- fit a cooling system to the car to aid IATs (and Octane) e.g. acaqamist - which we are about to do to the test car
- dump the VTGs and go back to conventional turbos.

If you consider the 9E 25 car at the start of this thread - we ran 206gps when the AT was above 25c at some point during the session - it shows you the difference and that was running k16 based hybrids.

Third gear pulls on dynos show nothing - it is not real power numbers. It does not translate to on the road performance.

Ken
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