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theboyfold
Original Poster
8,357 posts
95 months
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With all this talk about tax avoidance (not evasion) has got me wondering. How does it work and what are the options? For example, I guess that paying into an ISA could be considered avoidance and paying into my personal pension, that could be considered avoidance.
However, what about the 'immoral' methods used by the likes of Jimmy Carr, what sort of schemes are they?
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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Essentially, the individual's income is turned into a "loan" rather than straight income. Loans aren't taxable in the normal way. They may be subject to some Benefit in Kind tax and they might even be subject (in certain circumstances) to Corporation Tax - but they escape the full rigours of Income Tax and National Insurance - thus saving the taxpayer a massive tax bil.
The question is, are these loans genuine or purely a tax ploy? In 99.9% of cases, they are the latter. That is where the problem arises. HMRC are of the opinion that such artificial arangemnents are NOT within the spirit of the law and may not be within the letter of the law either. Their problem seems to be in getting such schemes shut down - especialy when they are based in an overseas tax haven such as Carr's is/was.
Many Premiership footballers are paid ithrough similar schemes.
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sumo69
857 posts
89 months
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Wayne Rooney's commercial rights income is paid into a Jersey company and he takes the money back as a loan and pays an effective personal tax rate of 2% or so - this was in the press a year or so ago.
The Government are introducing a general anti-avoidance clause into legislation at the moment - the idea being that any transaction will be taxed in a way that the "man on the street" would expect so all these loan schemes would immediately be treated as salary advances.
David
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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It was nice to hear Rooney saying that he enjoyed representing his country the other night. Maybe he might consider supporting it financially now.
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theboyfold
Original Poster
8,357 posts
95 months
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So essentially the person gets paid without tax and then shunts it all off-shore. So PAYE etc isn't taken at source.
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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Not only no PAYE, but very little ordinary Income Tax and no National Insurance contributions either.
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theboyfold
Original Poster
8,357 posts
95 months
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Sounds like a nice deal!! I can see why people would be upset by it going on.
So, the individual is a company as such, what would stop an individual doing something similar with an employer? So they became a company and their employer hired their services. I'm sure there are loads of reasons from a company and admin perspective, but I'm guessing it's roughly similar and 'sort of' above board?
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raptor600
1,356 posts
15 months
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Eric Mc said: It was nice to hear Rooney saying that he enjoyed representing his country the other night. Maybe he might consider supporting it financially now. I'm sure he has paid more tax than you or I will pay in out life time.
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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raptor600 said: Eric Mc said: It was nice to hear Rooney saying that he enjoyed representing his country the other night. Maybe he might consider supporting it financially now. I'm sure he has paid more tax than you or I will pay in out life time. I'm not - but not being party to his tax arrangements, I can't really say.
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raptor600
1,356 posts
15 months
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Eric Mc said: raptor600 said: Eric Mc said: It was nice to hear Rooney saying that he enjoyed representing his country the other night. Maybe he might consider supporting it financially now. I'm sure he has paid more tax than you or I will pay in out life time. I'm not - but not being party to his tax arrangements, I can't really say. When you take the VAT he pays on purchases into account - I think it is highly likely he does.
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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So, you think that paying VAT covers your legal amd noral obligation to pay tax?
I think you need to read up on UK tax regulations.
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raptor600
1,356 posts
15 months
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Eric Mc said: So, you think that paying VAT covers your legal amd noral obligation to pay tax?
I think you need to read up on UK tax regulations. No, I think you complaining he is not 'supporting the country financially' when he pays more tax than 99% of people is unfair. He has no moral obligation to pay more tax than he has to. It is those people who sit on the arses not working (probably on PistonHeads  ) who I feel should be targeted. Not those legally reducing their tax bill. The problem lies with HMRC - they need to find a way to close the loopholes. You can't blame people for avoiding tax and exploiting loop holes - anyone that says they wouldn't if they were in the same position (apart from Jesus) is probably lying.
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theboyfold
Original Poster
8,357 posts
95 months
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raptor600 said: Eric Mc said: So, you think that paying VAT covers your legal amd noral obligation to pay tax?
I think you need to read up on UK tax regulations. No, I think you complaining he is not 'supporting the country financially' when he pays more tax than 99% of people is unfair. Tax in what way? Via PAYE or VAT on purchases he makes? BTW: I don't want to turn this into an argument about the rights or wrongs on doing this, I was just interested in how it all worked...
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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raptor600 said: No, I think you complaining he is not 'supporting the country financially' when he pays more tax than 99% of people is unfair. He has no moral obligation to pay more tax than he has to. It is those people who sit on the arses not working (probably on PistonHeads  ) who I feel should be targeted. Not those legally reducing their tax bill. The problem lies with HMRC - they need to find a way to close the loopholes. You can't blame people for avoiding tax and exploiting loop holes - anyone that says they wouldn't if they were in the same position (apart from Jesus) is probably lying. The legal obligation of an individual to pay DIRECT taxes is not predicated on how the total direct taxes that individual pays compares to what others pay. It is based on their income levels. That is the law - whether you, me or people like Wayne Rooney like it or not. If a person enters into a scheme which essentially falsifies their true income levels in order to avoid taxes - then they have a case to answer. Schemes such as the K2 scheme MAY be (just) on the legal side of the fence - but that remains to be seen.
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raptor600
1,356 posts
15 months
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One thing's for sure...Peak Performance Accountants are going to be getting a lot of phone calls today!
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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Probably a mass exodus of their clients.
I'll keep an eye in the accounting press to see how their fortunes pan out over the next few months.
Think "Vantis".
PS - I've just realised that Peak Performance probably refer to all their schemes with names linked to famous mountauins. If I was an HMRC officvial, I would be looking at schemes called
Everest Matterhorn Kilimanjaro
etc
Smug accountants with smug clients. Hubris at work.
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R11ysf
1,301 posts
51 months
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raptor600 said: No, I think you complaining he is not 'supporting the country financially' when he pays more tax than 99% of people is unfair.
The problem lies with HMRC - they need to find a way to close the loopholes. You can't blame people for avoiding tax and exploiting loop holes - [b]anyone that says they wouldn't if they were in the same position (apart from Jesus) is probably lying.[b] I agree it is a problem with the HMRC being able to efficiently close these loopholes off, maybe they need greater powers? However,there was a topic on this a while ago when the retrospective clause was introduced about the IOM [-]scam[/] scheme and I think you will find there are a lot of people who didn't chose to go down these routes. I was offered similar schemes to reduce tax to about 7% and i said no. I think 50% is too high but I actually want a Police force, fire brigades and NHS, roads, schools, universities etc etc etc. There are far too many people who are out just for themselves and actually don't realise that it is the society in which they grew up that afforded them the opportunity to make those vast sums of money. And yes, that include Mr Rooney. Those council funded football groups he went to when he was 5, and the school fields he played on. Oh and that teacher that first encouraged him to play football properly and then sent him to Everton trials. Or we could just take your view and f  k everyone else.
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raptor600
1,356 posts
15 months
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R11ysf said: Or we could just take your view and f  k everyone else. I think that is slightly harsh. I don't use any such schemes and could quite easily relocate to a tax haven and work from there if I wished - but I don't. All I am saying is you can't blame people who do. If there was a flat tax rate of 20% instead of 50% I am sure most people would not bother taking the risk of using one of these schemes...but when it is half you money being taken I can understand why they do.
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Eric Mc
67,253 posts
134 months
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People need to examine their consciences, if they have any.
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R11ysf
1,301 posts
51 months
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raptor600 said: All I am saying is you can't blame people who do. And I'm saying you can blame people that do. They have taken advantage of society in order to get themselves in a position to earn a lot of money and now they are there it's a case of "not my problem". What if the bin men decide to not collect from their house? Or the Police decide to not investigate their burglary? Jimmy Carr: HELP HELP My house is burning down. Fireman: Really? Not my problem.
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