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RWD cossie wil

Original Poster:

1,882 posts

43 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
I have been looking into buying an investment property for a while now, and hopefully I will be in a position to buy just after Xmas this year.

Ideally I would like to flip a few propertys to build a decent deposit, then start a few long term rental projects.

My main question I suppose is how many BTL mortgages are lenders likely to allow you to have? How do you build a decent size portfolio without making a house of cards?

Is it best to operate as a personal owner or hold the propertys in a LTD company?

tonker

44,049 posts

118 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
Beeny. Kirsty. That one who used to do the Lloyds adverts. The one with the piggy little face and squeaky voice you'd love to have in a little schoolgirl's skirt. That tough Lesbian lickylike one who used to tell people off for their untidy houses. Or Phil. Or the Late Kristian. If that's your bag.

Job 1. Stop talking like you've spent an afternoon with Ajay Ahuja and been brainwashed.

smile




sinizter

3,348 posts

56 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
Hold it as personal.

One or two BTLs initially ... But they are secured on rental income rather than yout income, so theoretically, no limit.

S6PNJ

1,827 posts

151 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
Some mortgage lenders will only let you have 3 (eg Godiva) and some will only let you have 10 (shared amongst their sub-companies, ie Lloyds Halifax etc). So you could have 3 with Godiva, then 10 with Lloyds then x with y etc etc. I think in general principle, you are not prevented from holding any number of properties but as your numbers go up I think the number of mortgage lenders available to you will go down.

I'm sure Sarnie or someone else will be along soon to confirm/deny as appropriate!

RWD cossie wil

Original Poster:

1,882 posts

43 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
Beeny. Kirsty. That one who used to do the Lloyds adverts. The one with the piggy little face and squeaky voice you'd love to have in a little schoolgirl's skirt. That tough Lesbian lickylike one who used to tell people off for their untidy houses. Or Phil. Or the Late Kristian. If that's your bag.

Job 1. Stop talking like you've spent an afternoon with Ajay Ahuja and been brainwashed.

smile
Thanks for that useful input then...

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fridaypassion

2,323 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 3rd July 2012 quote quote all
I very much doubt you'll be doing much flipping. The property sales market is horrible at the moment and theres no money to be made in renovations either. You need a 25% deposit for halfway decent BTL rates too. If you have the funds to buy 10 properties that way I suspect you will still have 10 properties in 2 years time.

If you can make the maths work you'd be better off investing for good rental yield and using the rental income to build up more funds. You wont get it from appreciation any time soon.

tonker

44,049 posts

118 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
RWD cossie wil said:
Thanks for that useful input then...
there was a serious point to it.... that you missed. It's not as easy as it was 10-13 years ago. And the concept of just flipping a few, because the telly and some bloke who makes his living out of sucking in people with more money than initiative (not just picking on Ahuja there) is somewhat out of date. Especially with no experience of either the market or developing in general.

Maybe I tried to be too obtuse, rather than directly patronising. Apologies, I will dumb it down for you in future.

FlashmanChop

1,079 posts

76 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
Job 1. Stop talking like you've spent an afternoon with Ajay Ahuja and been brainwashed.

smile
ha ha ha quality.

had a chuckle there.

RWD cossie wil

Original Poster:

1,882 posts

43 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
there was a serious point to it.... that you missed. It's not as easy as it was 10-13 years ago. And the concept of just flipping a few, because the telly and some bloke who makes his living out of sucking in people with more money than initiative (not just picking on Ahuja there) is somewhat out of date. Especially with no experience of either the market or developing in general.

Maybe I tried to be too obtuse, rather than directly patronising. Apologies, I will dumb it down for you in future.
You are a bit of a cock really arn't you?



Rude-boy

15,651 posts

103 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
RWD cossie wil said:
You are a bit of a cock really arn't you?
One thing Tonker is not is a cock. You might not appreciate his posting style, especially if you are on the receiving end, but he is usually on or within sight of the mark.

1. The ship has sailed for making yourself a fortune out of this. You can make an income but forget about capital growth for the next 2 years minimum and i would suggest prepare for 5 years of stagnant prices.

2. Given the above you are only likely to increase your funds based on retained income from rent so it will take much longer than a year or two to save up for property No3. You can accelerate this by adding funds from other sources to the pot.

3. BTL mortgages are not the same as resi ones. The T&C's for a start are a lot more 'bitey'. Make sure you know what you are signing up for rather than think you know.

4. Don't bother littering your talk on this subject with words like "leverage", "flip", and "portfolio". It singles you out as someone who thinks that they know more than they do.

As a small aside I have a lot of clients with BTLs. One who has just over 170 houses and flats would tell you they own a couple of small rental properties to keep the wolf from the door. The only borrowing they have is purely as it is tax efficient. Another one owns 5 flats, mortgaged to the hilt, and when all are let it just about covers the monthly repayments, Service Charges and Ground Rents. They believe they have a Significant Investment Property Portfolio.

RWD cossie wil

Original Poster:

1,882 posts

43 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
Rude-boy said:
One thing Tonker is not is a cock. You might not appreciate his posting style, especially if you are on the receiving end, but he is usually on or within sight of the mark.

1. The ship has sailed for making yourself a fortune out of this. You can make an income but forget about capital growth for the next 2 years minimum and i would suggest prepare for 5 years of stagnant prices.

2. Given the above you are only likely to increase your funds based on retained income from rent so it will take much longer than a year or two to save up for property No3. You can accelerate this by adding funds from other sources to the pot.

3. BTL mortgages are not the same as resi ones. The T&C's for a start are a lot more 'bitey'. Make sure you know what you are signing up for rather than think you know.

4. Don't bother littering your talk on this subject with words like "leverage", "flip", and "portfolio". It singles you out as someone who thinks that they know more than they do.

As a small aside I have a lot of clients with BTLs. One who has just over 170 houses and flats would tell you they own a couple of small rental properties to keep the wolf from the door. The only borrowing they have is purely as it is tax efficient. Another one owns 5 flats, mortgaged to the hilt, and when all are let it just about covers the monthly repayments, Service Charges and Ground Rents. They believe they have a Significant Investment Property Portfolio.
As said, it is for hopefully long term investment, not looking for overnight riches.

Is portfolio not an acceptable term to use for a selection of rental properties then? Ok Flip might sound a bit yuppie ish, but for the purposes of forum posting, it just seems less clumsy than typing up "buy, renovate & sell".

As regards to Tonka, speaking to people in that manner would generally get you landed in your arse in the real world, why post like that apart from trying to look clever?

A simple post explaining his views would be a lot more productive & pleasant, much like your posting?

In the area I live, I have been watching the market closely for the types of property I am interested in, and lots have sold very quickly, which indicates to me the market is ok if you choose carefully & don't go in expecting to make 20k just by painting the walls & mowing the land wink

tonker

44,049 posts

118 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
RWD cossie wil said:
You are a bit of a cock really arn't you?
Yes. But I don't think I am wrong. Maybe you'd prefer it saccharine coated ?

RWD cossie wil

Original Poster:

1,882 posts

43 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
tonker said:
Yes. But I don't think I am wrong. Maybe you'd prefer it saccharine coated ?
Perhaps talking to people in a civil manner isn't too much of a compromise? smile

cerberaperv

389 posts

85 months

[news] 
Wednesday 4th July 2012 quote quote all
Here`s throwing the cat among the pigeons!

Cossie you`ve been given the wrong advice!

You CAN flip in this market. I`ve been doing it for the past 6yrs.

If you think you can buy a BTL and build up a pot of funds to then flip properties, you`ll be waiting years!

A BTL cash-flowing say, £200mth gives £2400 pa, less voids, less repairs, you`ll be lucky to net £2k. Even after 10yrs you`ve not got a great amount.

Buy one at the right price, in the right area. Maybe spend a few k refurbing, maybe not. Either sell on the open market or put in auction. Aim for a min of £10k net profit on up to £80k props. Make sure there`s enough profit for the next man and you`ll sell it. Be greedy trying to get top dollar and you`ll have the prop sitting there 6-12mths later and you`ll end up reducing the price anyway.

DO YOUR Due Diligence thoroughly on the price, prop and area, before you buy. Make sure that there`ll be a profit there on your exit.

My last deal completed 25th June earning £37k profit after costs. Previous to that I had 2 complete a few weeks earlier.

It can be done and there`ll be a lot of people laughing telling you it can`t.

Let them laugh! ;-)

If you want to PM me I`ll help put you in the right direction.

groak

3,254 posts

49 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
Speaking as a person who cannot borrow even one thin dime to expand a residential let property portfolio, I have come to LOVE adding ludicrously cheap stock burden free. Loans aren't the only 'yield chopper', but they don't help profitability.

The sales market is, erm, what's the term??......oh yeah, that's it.....fukindeid!!! laugh Ok, it's not DEAD but it's a little quieter than peak. '05 - '08 I sold 4 or 5 properties a week. That's about the same number I sold last YEAR! I could rattle on about why this is, but can't be bothered. So 'flipwise' volumes are way down and so are margins. Most stuff only sells if it's marked well down. And in some cases that means REALLY REALLY down.

Now re-read the first para.

Incidentally, letting's giving me that funny 'doom on the horizon' feeling occasionally. Commercial's only 'ok' and residential's become so over-regulated that it's administratively measurably time (= money) consuming now.

This doesn't seem to be a decade in which property's 'sexy'. Not yet at least.

TBH I think many/most people are thoroughly bored hearing about it.









Edited by groak on Thursday 5th July 01:32

surveyor

4,695 posts

54 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
groak said:
Speaking as a person who cannot borrow even one thin dime to expand a residential let property portfolio, I have come to LOVE adding ludicrously cheap stock burden free. Loans aren't the only 'yield chopper', but they don't help profitability.

The sales market is, erm, what's the term??......oh yeah, that's it.....fukindeid!!! laugh Ok, it's not DEAD but it's a little quieter than peak. '05 - '08 I sold 4 or 5 properties a week. That's about the same number I sold last YEAR! I could rattle on about why this is, but can't be bothered. So 'flipwise' volumes are way down and so are margins. Most stuff only sells if it's marked well down. And in some cases that means REALLY REALLY down.

Now re-read the first para.

Incidentally, letting's giving me that funny 'doom on the horizon' feeling occasionally. Commercial's only 'ok' and residential's become so over-regulated that it's administratively measurably time (= money) consuming now.

This doesn't seem to be a decade in which property's 'sexy'. Not yet at least.

TBH I think many/most people are thoroughly bored hearing about it.









Edited by groak on Thursday 5th July 01:32
But everyone can make a packet, obviously and everyone is an expert.

OP A development, even a do it upper will need a decent deposit now, not after a few have been 'flipped'. And don't forget once you've put your deposit down you need the funds to get the work done, and hold the property until it's sold.

Which is why no-one messing with property went bust in the last 5 years


Edited by surveyor on Thursday 5th July 09:37

superlightr

6,883 posts

133 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
Hmm - We see it from a different angle. As letting agents over the last 4 months we have had a good increase of enquiries from landlords with 2nd properties to let out, a mix of BTL but also of parents into care homes types.

As others have said you will need a good deposit down to make the return match the expenditure with a BTL mortgage. From my sales friends things are just ticking along (we dont sell) but we can generally let properties easily, demand is good and rental prices are good.

What has suprised me (even with the talk from no10 of limiting HB payments) is some 3 bed family houses in not so good arears are letting at high rents to HB tenants because not many LL will touch them. The ones we help have FT gutors. so reasonably safe bets. The payments from HB are above what that sort of house would get to 'normal' tenants but still within the 'nominal' 3 bed price limit of a good area hence the HB pay it.


eg 3 bed sold under £200k let out at £950 poor area HB tenants
2 bed sold £207k good area let at £850 normal tenants

The main worry would be on capital growth over the next 5-20 yrs as I think it will be better for the better area and also void periods 'should' be less.

Edited by superlightr on Thursday 5th July 10:14

Trommel

10,654 posts

129 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
cerberaperv said:
Maybe spend a few k refurbing, maybe not. Either sell on the open market or put in auction.
Refurbishing to put through auction doesn't sound so clever to me.

cerberaperv

389 posts

85 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
Trommel said:
cerberaperv said:
Maybe spend a few k refurbing, maybe not. Either sell on the open market or put in auction.
Refurbishing to put through auction doesn't sound so clever to me.
Which is why I said Maybe.

Every deal is different and you plan your exits accordingly.

Kudos

2,107 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 5th July 2012 quote quote all
superlightr said:
eg 3 bed sold under £200k let out at £950 poor area HB tenants
2 bed sold £207k good area let at £850 normal tenants

Edited by superlightr on Thursday 5th July 10:14
mental figures there. I bought a 3 bed terrace last month for £20k cash. Spent £10k doing it up, am getting £425/month

Rinse and repeat.
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