Login | Register
SearchMy Stuff
My ProfileMy PreferencesMy Mates RSS Feed
2 3 ... 102 103
Reply to Topic
Author Discussion

London424

Original Poster:

5,410 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
So moving this topic out of the TdF 2012 thread, what are people's views on this?

I've read a couple of his books and have always been impressed how he came back from cancer to achieve what he has. The team around him advanced cycling with the planning and training elements that SKY have again advanced on.

Is this just a vendetta by the USADA or do we think that someone that has been tested so many times has been able to evade them for so long?

It seems like it is testimony from others, rather than proof of failed tests that is forming the basis of this round of allegations.

Iceman82

1,295 posts

121 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
I honestly don't know.

I have also read the books and reading about how he overcame the cancer to achieve so much is frankly inspiring.

However, so many people on the Tour during his peak years where users that it's so very hard to ignore the possibility he may have been as well. Nonetheless, the man was constantly tested during his time (I believe he is the most tested athlete ever?)and no test has ever proven positive. Therefore, was he the only one in the whole Tour to use a performance enhancing drug that was untraceable? I think the closest they ever got was some sort of steriod reading which was put down to a saddle cream or something similar.

His recent comeback to the pro peleton, and his triathlon performances, do illustrate that he is clearly a naturally gifted athlete.

I want to believe he isn't a cheat, though I do think he is quite arrogant (a viewpoint enhanced by the books) and agressive, because of what he did for the sport of cycling and cancer awareness. If he is found guilty I imagine the effect on Livestrong will be severe. The organisation was founded based on his achievements, if those achievements were the result of drug taking then the organisation is on rocky ground. That, coupled with the recent articles stating that Livestrong does nothing to enhance cancer research, could see it flounder and collapse.

However, the USDA do seem to be obsessed by trying to prove LA used perforamnce enhancing drugs. Their case has no tests to support it just the second hand testimony of some teamates and others, all of whom were granted immunity if they testified against LA. That's a pretty shoddy case.

samwilliams

810 posts

141 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
I find it interesting how much the judge completely destroyed Armstrong's first application to dismiss the case. He said (according to the BBC website):

"This court is not inclined to indulge Armstrong's desire for publicity … by sifting through 80 mostly unnecessary pages [for] factual material relevant to his claims," Sparks wrote on Monday.

However, he said Armstrong could refile his complaint within 20 days, advising Armstrong's lawyers to "omit any improper argument, rhetoric, or irrelevant material".


Nom de ploom

3,171 posts

59 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
how far is far enuogh to prove fairness in sport?

it does appear to be the testimony versus 500+ passed drugs tests etc....to what extent will the evidence outwiegh or disprove the testimony under oath...

i'll be gutted if he is found guilty and stripped of his TDF wins, but i'm not sure I could even believe a guitly verdict to be honest.

I hope this does go away and he can get on with his life...

500+ passed tests must count for a lot. the sheer will and organisation if he were taking PHDs to time his usage or intake of masking drugs etc would be phenominal over that period of time...

iirc there has never been a false A or B sample corroborated on a second A or B test has there?

seems pretty convincing to the outside world...having read his books too and been a bit of a personal hero (ernest shakleton is my other) I'd be pretty cold if this went to trial....


Asterix

20,750 posts

113 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
He's the most tested athelete the planet has seen and there has never been anything thay've been able to pin on him and boy, have they tried!

I think explains in the first book that having cancer actually give him the chance to rebuild his body in the perfect mould for endurance cycling. This coupled with a naturaly highy efficient heart has given him the edge.

He said that before he had cancer, he was actaully a bit too well built/top heavy for a top cyclist - the cancer took him back to skin and bones and he started from scratch again.

I personally give him the benefit of doubt - I can't believe that he and his coaches have any wonder knowledge that can help evade positive results from constant drug testing when his peers have been caught.
Advertisement

Nom de ploom

3,171 posts

59 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
slightly O/T but I can't help but draw some parallels to Lance and Jon Bon Jovi, both masters of their respective art (personal opinions aside) but shadows over their personal integrity - jon more than lance imho

Iceman82

1,295 posts

121 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
Nom de ploom said:
slightly O/T but I can't help but draw some parallels to Lance and Jon Bon Jovi, both masters of their respective art (personal opinions aside) but shadows over their personal integrity - jon more than lance imho
What shadows hover over Jon Bon Jovi?

Asterix

20,750 posts

113 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
Iceman82 said:
Nom de ploom said:
slightly O/T but I can't help but draw some parallels to Lance and Jon Bon Jovi, both masters of their respective art (personal opinions aside) but shadows over their personal integrity - jon more than lance imho
What shadows hover over Jon Bon Jovi?
Being a st singer live probably - horribly nasal voice and phoned in the performance when I was dragged along to see them. Rest of the band were good.

I reckon that's it hehe

prand

3,304 posts

81 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
Nom de ploom said:
slightly O/T but I can't help but draw some parallels to Lance and Jon Bon Jovi, both masters of their respective art (personal opinions aside) but shadows over their personal integrity - jon more than lance imho
I'd have to say that wins with the most ludicrous O/T comment and innapropriate comparison I've read. I'd love to know how you came to it!

Nom de ploom

3,171 posts

59 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
well JBJ proports to be pretty squeaky clean and leads one of the most commercially succesful bands of all time but behind the scenes the "bongiovi" family have shat on a lot of people and alienated bands like Skid Row (at teh time a competitor of bon jovi) such that Sebastian Bach can;t even say the words bon jovi pretty much without incurring a lawsuit...

like I said O/T - jbj has a dark past which haunts him imho and it could be argued Lance is or could be in a similar position....


nick s

1,143 posts

102 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
prand said:
I'd have to say that wins with the most ludicrous O/T comment and innapropriate comparison I've read. I'd love to know how you came to it!
haha! biggrin

prand

3,304 posts

81 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
erm, ok. Forgive me, but you have managed to put the amusing image in my head of you sitting at your keyboard with a "JBJ" t-shirt on and hairdo, c1987, who manages to tenuously and rather repetitively link any random topic of conversation back to your fave band! biggrin

In your comparison, you could have picked any successful/entrepreneurial person who has reached the "top", tries to cultivate a clean image but manages to st on and sue everyone on the way there. Cuddly Richard Branson springs to mind.

However - I can't really see how this applies to Armstrong. His dark past would be he systematically fooled us all and took drugs to help him with the TDF 7 times. Hoodwinking us would destroy everything he has done, would make all his acheivements, his books, his charity work a complete sham.

If we found that JBJ was a hard ass bd, and treats his wife and kids and mates and colleagues badly and was/is completely hooked on all drugs known to man, or even god forbid turned out gay for all these years, it's hardly a surprise given the industry he's in and track record of peers. And it certainly won't take away from the fact he's been in a half decent rock band and has sold quite a records on the back of it.

EDIT - just looked at the Bon Jovi wiki page. I see where the charitable acts bit comes from, I can see where that would not look so good if certain "revelations" were released.

Cheib

9,053 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
I have no idea what to believe.

The thing I can't get out of my head is that if he did manage to win seven tours clean in an era when we know the use of performance enhancing drugs was widespread it makes that achievement all the more incredible.....or nigh on impossible to do clean.

I've no idea but read that website linked to in the main TDF thread about power outputs and what is possible to sustain. Were Armstrong's rides achievable within the realms of what people think is achievable ?

Sway

3,614 posts

79 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
With relation to power outputs, I think the accepted answer is a resounding no.

Look at the difference in average speeds etc., plus the fact that Lance didn't just win, he absolutely fking annihilated all challengers, in their respective specialist areas.

Pantani was an amazing climber naturally. Add the dope, and he was a mountain goat in human form. Lance left him for dead.

I was an immense Armstrong fan, built up a USPS Trek with all the goodies. Bought his books, wore the wristband.

In my opinion, there's no way he was clean.

It's also worth pointing out the USADA aren't just going after him for doping, but being part of the supply chain...

I do accept ny opinion is worth nothing, and I do agree the methods being used to pin him are unsavoury, but it'll take a lot to convince me otherwise.

Nom de ploom

3,171 posts

59 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
prand said:
erm, ok. Forgive me, but you have managed to put the amusing image in my head of you sitting at your keyboard with a "JBJ" t-shirt on and hairdo, c1987, who manages to tenuously and rather repetitively link any random topic of conversation back to your fave band! biggrin

In your comparison, you could have picked any successful/entrepreneurial person who has reached the "top", tries to cultivate a clean image but manages to st on and sue everyone on the way there. Cuddly Richard Branson springs to mind.

However - I can't really see how this applies to Armstrong. His dark past would be he systematically fooled us all and took drugs to help him with the TDF 7 times. Hoodwinking us would destroy everything he has done, would make all his acheivements, his books, his charity work a complete sham.

If we found that JBJ was a hard ass bd, and treats his wife and kids and mates and colleagues badly and was/is completely hooked on all drugs known to man, or even god forbid turned out gay for all these years, it's hardly a surprise given the industry he's in and track record of peers. And it certainly won't take away from the fact he's been in a half decent rock band and has sold quite a records on the back of it.

EDIT - just looked at the Bon Jovi wiki page. I see where the charitable acts bit comes from, I can see where that would not look so good if certain "revelations" were released.
FFS I said it was O/T. I saw Bon Jovi at milton keynes in 1990 whenever and they rocked. that was the last time they really rocked too.

I said it reminded me of...not it was the same as....


London424

Original Poster:

5,410 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
Sway said:
With relation to power outputs, I think the accepted answer is a resounding no.

Look at the difference in average speeds etc., plus the fact that Lance didn't just win, he absolutely fking annihilated all challengers, in their respective specialist areas.

Pantani was an amazing climber naturally. Add the dope, and he was a mountain goat in human form. Lance left him for dead.

I was an immense Armstrong fan, built up a USPS Trek with all the goodies. Bought his books, wore the wristband.

In my opinion, there's no way he was clean.

It's also worth pointing out the USADA aren't just going after him for doping, but being part of the supply chain...

I do accept ny opinion is worth nothing, and I do agree the methods being used to pin him are unsavoury, but it'll take a lot to convince me otherwise.
Surely though his old samples would have tested positive for something if it was true? I'm really not sure but find it miraculous that he could go so long and nothing but whisperings and conjecture being the most they can pin on him.

And let's be honest here, if the USADA only have testimony from ex teammates that will remain anonymous while being given immunity from prosecution is hardly smoking gun stuff.

rhinochopig

17,046 posts

83 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
My view is they should just let it go. Whether he did or didn't, persuing this yet again is only going to further damage the sport; a sport that already has a dire public image WRT drug cheating.

I'm going to quote myself here from the bike forum of the same subject, WRT stripping Armstrong of his medals...

Take the yr 2000 TdF for example just using wiki:

So you strip Armstrong and hand it to Ulrich. Ulrich has been implicated as a drug cheat so he could turn out positive if re-examined, so he gets stripped. So you award it to Beloki. He was implicated in Operation Puerto, so you re-investigate him and he's found guilty, so he gets stripped. So you award it to Moreau but ah, he was done for roids and EPO, so you strip him, and hand it to Heras, who was tested postive in 2005 for a drugs test for EPO......

Do you see where I'm going with this? They were all cheating like fk so it's pointless to single out Armstrong - guilty or not - as it will do no one any good whatsoever and simply make pro-cycling an even bigger laughing stock than it already is.

The UCI et al should draw a line under the lot and say we will be introducing retrospective drugs testing from now on

Sway

3,614 posts

79 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
Agree that all the others got caught, but none tested positive for EPO (there not being a test for EPO as it's a naturally occurring substance in the body). Most were caught through proper detective work or pure luck intercepting vials etc.

So they've gone to blood passports, looking for what is 'normal' for that individual.

Except there are 'allowances' made for certain people, who have convinced the UCI (rightly or not), that certain levels of certain substances are normal for them, as they are freaks of nature etc.

What exactly is normal bloodwork for someone who went through what Lance went through? What long term history is there to fall back on?

I remember the cycling press at the time stating that Ullrich would always put on a significant amount of weight in the winter, and it was normal for him to lose it by summer. Looking back on it, that was hopelessly naive when no one else was able to bounce their weight by 10-15 kilos every six months... Similar conversations were had regarding Lance - there was something in the treatment that elevated his capability, or he was training differently from everyone else (despite the only evidence of that being some wind tunnel work, nothing I recall regarding radically different conditioning methodologies). This was used as justification for him smashing Ullrich on the flat and Pantani on the climbs in his first couple of Tour wins, prior to the knowledge of their doping.

Don't care if everyone else has been caught, if he doped (and I personally believe he and most of USPS under Bruyneel did), then he should have his record stripped. Don't forget how big a star he is in the States - he didn't just get a page 3 girl (no offence Peta!), he got an A list star. He earned untold millions, and made people going through the worst time of their lives believe that this was achievable. I don't see they have to retrospectively award a winner. The record books can have a black line through them with an explanation that no fair result can be attributed.

That will really prove that cycling is trying to clean itself up.

The above is also ignoring the accusations of USADA that he was part of the supply chain...

rhinochopig

17,046 posts

83 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
But to single LA out is pointless now. They were ALL at it. And to be fair to him, he was a complete psycho in terms of his training and preparation.

I read a psych paper a few years back which compared elite - multi championship, olympic, etc winning athletes to full on certified psychopaths and other than a focus for their outlet, they tested exactly the same. And I think LA takes the level of obsession and drive to a new level compared to his contemporaries.

If ANYONE was going to do it clean it was him.


London424

Original Poster:

5,410 posts

60 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th July 2012 quote quote all
And he's also doing pretty well at Triathlon at his age now. Surely he wouldn't still be doing it now as well would he?

It seems that for whatever reason he's pretty good at these endurance events.
2 3 ... 102 103
Reply to Topic