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mondeoman
Original Poster
6,800 posts
135 months
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Following on from this thread we've started a Fast-Track case against the tenants and I need to provide a list of documents for the court (standard disclosure). To recap: Tenant taking on through letting agent in 2008, after two years sacked the agent (2010) and let direct to the tenant using a contract sourced from riky.co.uk which was signed by me but not by the tenant. Tenant moved out in Oct 11, left unclean houes, damage and rubbish and unpaid rent. Tenenat left the property part way through the moving out inspection as soon as we said we weren't going to be returning the deposit so we couldn't finalsie it with them in attendance. DPS wouldn't entertain us retaining the deposit as we couldn't provide the original schedule nor a signed contract. Total claim is in excess of £6k with court costs. We now have a copy of the original letting agents signed contract, together with a copy of the original moving in schedule. So my list of docs will be: original signed contract original schedule revised contrat - not sure if this should be included? transcript of text from tenant advising of leaving date transcript of text from me advising acceptance email from me stating reasons for retaining the deposit copy of final inspection report, including supporting photos emails from the tenants saying we should give them the deposit back DPS claim form and supporting documents DPS final decision Copy of Letter Before Action to the tenant Statement of claim for the Small Claims court Tenants defence statement Standard disclosure statementTwo questions: 1/ Have I missed anything? 2/ What are the odds of getting a result? Cheers
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10 Pence Short
27,633 posts
86 months
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If the value is greater than £5000, don't both sides have to agree to put it through the Small Claims track? There would be potential costs implications if you were to lose in that event, too.
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mondeoman
Original Poster
6,800 posts
135 months
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10 Pence Short said: If the value is greater than £5000, don't both sides have to agree to put it through the Small Claims track? There would be potential costs implications if you were to lose in that event, too. The court decided to put it through on Fast-track, next level up from small claims. I'm out £450 in court costs already, with another £650 to find by September, then its just waiting for the final hearing in November (scheduled for 3 hours). Good money after bad? Maybe, but with the contract(s) and schedules and supporting photos I feel I've got a strong case. My concern is whether or not there is a legal contract, given that we binned the letting agent and the tenant didn't sign the new contract. Does the old contract then follow on?
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10 Pence Short
27,633 posts
86 months
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Sorry, for some reason I read 'small claim' at the top of your post- my mistake!
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sinizter
3,346 posts
55 months
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mondeoman said: Does the old contract then follow on? Not sure, but after the first fixed term it just becomes a rolling contract with 1 month notice required from tenant side and 2 months notice from landlord side to terminate, I think.
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10 Pence Short
27,633 posts
86 months
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mondeoman said: he court decided to put it through on Fast-track, next level up from small claims.
I'm out £450 in court costs already, with another £650 to find by September, then its just waiting for the final hearing in November (scheduled for 3 hours). Good money after bad? Maybe, but with the contract(s) and schedules and supporting photos I feel I've got a strong case. My concern is whether or not there is a legal contract, given that we binned the letting agent and the tenant didn't sign the new contract.
Does the old contract then follow on? Why didn't the tenant sign the new contract?
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mondeoman
Original Poster
6,800 posts
135 months
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sinizter said: mondeoman said: Does the old contract then follow on? Not sure, but after the first fixed term it just becomes a rolling contract with 1 month notice required from tenant side and 2 months notice from landlord side to terminate, I think. Yeah, thats normal. The original contract deposit was returned when the agents were binned, and I set up the new deposit with the DPS but iirc a contract needs an offer, an acceptance and a consideration: we offered a new contract and by paying the rent for a further 2 years, did they then accept the new contract?
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mondeoman
Original Poster
6,800 posts
135 months
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10 Pence Short said: Why didn't the tenant sign the new contract? My fault - gave them two signed copies, never went back to collect their signed copy
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10 Pence Short
27,633 posts
86 months
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Do you have any communications from them accepting the contract (ie. text message from them with "yep, looks ok" on it or anything like that)?
What does your legal advice say?
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RBOnline
45 posts
37 months
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Without a signed tenancy agreement between them and you, you haven't got a leg to stand on, have you?
How is the old tenancy agreement at all relevant (in legal terms I mean)?
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mondeoman
Original Poster
6,800 posts
135 months
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10 Pence Short said: Do you have any communications from them accepting the contract (ie. text message from them with "yep, looks ok" on it or anything like that)?
What does your legal advice say? Nothing at all, except that they paid the rent into my account for two years  Legal advice? Whats that?? Thats what PH is for, shirly?
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mondeoman
Original Poster
6,800 posts
135 months
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RBOnline said: Without a signed tenancy agreement between them and you, you haven't got a leg to stand on, have you?
How is the old tenancy agreement at all relevant (in legal terms I mean)? Thats what I'm trying to find out
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10 Pence Short
27,633 posts
86 months
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mondeoman said: Nothing at all, except that they paid the rent into my account for two years  Legal advice? Whats that?? Thats what PH is for, shirly? If the old contract ended some time in 2010 and they moved out, owing rent, in October 2011, I can't see that they were paying you for 2 years under the new contract.
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JumboBeef
1,730 posts
46 months
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As hard as this is, I would forget it and move on.
I think you will be throwing good money after bad.
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mondeoman
Original Poster
6,800 posts
135 months
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10 Pence Short said: If the old contract ended some time in 2010 and they moved out, owing rent, in October 2011, I can't see that they were paying you for 2 years under the new contract. Just spoke to my friendly solicitor, she says that the legal arguement is that the original tenancy didn't end until Oct 2011, even though the letting agents were taken out of the game, and as the tenants didn't sign the new contract, then the old one applies.
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Davel
6,874 posts
127 months
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JumboBeef said: As hard as this is, I would forget it and move on.
I think you will be throwing good money after bad. I suspect that this will be the case. If you do win, does the Tenant have the cash to meet this? The Courts won't award what the Tenant can't pay sadly.
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RBOnline
45 posts
37 months
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mondeoman said: Just spoke to my friendly solicitor, she says that the legal arguement is that the original tenancy didn't end until Oct 2011, even though the letting agents were taken out of the game, and as the tenants didn't sign the new contract, then the old one applies. How would the old one apply? It's between the tenant and the letting agency. Not the tenant and the OP.
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10 Pence Short
27,633 posts
86 months
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We let through an agency, but our contract is with the owner of the property, not the agent.
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mondeoman
Original Poster
6,800 posts
135 months
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10 Pence Short said: We let through an agency, but our contract is with the owner of the property, not the agent. Thats what the original contract implies: the agreement is between the landlord and tenant, the agent is merely the agent for the landlord, not a substantive party to the contract.
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mrmr96
11,958 posts
73 months
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RBOnline said: How would the old one apply? It's between the tenant and the letting agency. Not the tenant and the OP. The clue is in the name, "Agent".
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