Why does everyone slate Paddle Shift gearboxes?
Discussion
Have they actually driven them for more than a few miles?
Jeremy Carkson and the top gear gang are always slagging of "flappy paddle shifts" , as are members of this forum - but why?
I think it's A:- fashionable to do it within the journalistic fraternity and B:- they don't drive any car long enough.
I test drove a 4200 Cambio 2 years ago and really wasn't very keen on the box - it just seemed wrong!
However when I could finally afford a Masser I still bought one - and now after a month and 1200 miles I think it's brilliant! - but it takes a few days to get used to it.
First point is that it is not an Auto box - I think some people expect it to be able to carry out smooth shifts on it's own, well without a tourque convertor that ain't going to happen. Auto mode is crap (and unnecessary)
It is however a 2 pedal manual box and as this it is excellent.
Upshifts - this tends to be the bit that "enthusiastic drivers" find hard to get used to feeling the changes are very slow, however it's all abit of an illusion, caused because you're not actually doing anything. in a normal manual to change gear you Depress the clutch- come off the throttle- move the gearstick- raise the clutch- press the accelerator - this all takes time but because you're busy doing it you don't notice. With a paddle shift you "feel" you're waiting for it, well certianly I can't change gear as quickly as the Masser in sport mode and with a very gentle feathering of the throttle (something that takes a few days to master) the changes are completely smooth.
Downshifts. Here the Semi-automatic wins hands down as you can press on into a corner brake, turn and change down without taking your hands off the wheel, furthermore the car even "heel and toes" for you by blipping the throttle.
Traffic- Again the lack of a clutch means no leg ache and a lot less hassle a much more relaxed drive.
To sum up I'm a convert - does anyone who's actually owned a Good Paddle shift box not like it?
And why do you non-owneres think they are so bad?
Good discussion - I haven't driven a paddle shift 'box, but have ridden in a number of cars with them (and discussed the merits or otherwise with the owners). For me the key is whether it is an automated change on a manual box, or a set of buttons/paddles to effect changes on an auto box (rather than using the gear lever).
Essential for me would be:
- the ability to choose whatever gear I want, at whatever time (and have the gearbox hold it).
- not have the gearbox automatically change up (for example as the engine approaches the rev limiter).
- not have the gearbox veto any downchanges I choose to make (e.g. if it decides I'm going to over rev the engine).
The best I have seen is the 360CS which I reckon I could live with; others I couldn't with them being glorified automatics.
Essential for me would be:
- the ability to choose whatever gear I want, at whatever time (and have the gearbox hold it).
- not have the gearbox automatically change up (for example as the engine approaches the rev limiter).
- not have the gearbox veto any downchanges I choose to make (e.g. if it decides I'm going to over rev the engine).
The best I have seen is the 360CS which I reckon I could live with; others I couldn't with them being glorified automatics.
I've never actually driven a proper paddle shift manual but the thing that would put me off is not necessarily the driving experience but more that I get the impression they all seem to get through clutches so quick. Is this really the case?
If so, what causes this, do they have to slip the clutch in traffic to be smooth?
If so, what causes this, do they have to slip the clutch in traffic to be smooth?
Although it's only in a smart, I have a paddle shift as well..
And I love it...
It fits most of the criteria mentioned above bar vetoing "dangerous" shifts and not letting you choose 6th below 35Mph (like you'd want to!)
It is by no means anywhere near the standard of a BMW SMG box or Ferrari F1 or Lamborghini E-Gear, but I love it...
There is definitely a "knack" to getting the shifts smooth, my only real gripe with the smart gearbox is the lack of auto throttle blip on the way down the box... obviously I can heel and toe to smooth it out, but with a floor hinged brake pedal and conventional throttle pedal it's a little weird to get used to..
2p duly deposited..
slinky
And I love it...
It fits most of the criteria mentioned above bar vetoing "dangerous" shifts and not letting you choose 6th below 35Mph (like you'd want to!)
It is by no means anywhere near the standard of a BMW SMG box or Ferrari F1 or Lamborghini E-Gear, but I love it...
There is definitely a "knack" to getting the shifts smooth, my only real gripe with the smart gearbox is the lack of auto throttle blip on the way down the box... obviously I can heel and toe to smooth it out, but with a floor hinged brake pedal and conventional throttle pedal it's a little weird to get used to..
2p duly deposited..
slinky
PetrolTed said:
Essential for me would be:
- not have the gearbox automatically change up (for example as the engine approaches the rev limiter).
- not have the gearbox veto any downchanges I choose to make (e.g. if it decides I'm going to over rev the engine).
Why?
Gotta agree with Ted on this..? Why..?
You may be the nicest bloke in the world, but I just fail to see the logic in the above comments...
PetrolTed said:Because I want to know that which gear I'm going to be in for any part of a manoeuvre: I don't necessarily want my 'clever' gearbox changing up mid corner or mid overtake. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I think I'm in a better position to judge the current and upcoming gear requirements (given grip conditions, acceleration/deceleration required) than my gearbox.
Essential for me would be:
- not have the gearbox automatically change up (for example as the engine approaches the rev limiter).
- not have the gearbox veto any downchanges I choose to make (e.g. if it decides I'm going to over rev the engine).
Granted the downshift veto thing is less likely to be a problem, but I still don't like the idea of a piece of software being able to decide whether I can change down or not - I may need that lower gear in an emergency for example.
jeremyc said:
jeremyc said:
Essential for me would be:
- not have the gearbox automatically change up (for example as the engine approaches the rev limiter).
- not have the gearbox veto any downchanges I choose to make (e.g. if it decides I'm going to over rev the engine).
Why?
Because I want to know that which gear I'm going to be in for any part of a manoeuvre: I don't necessarily want my 'clever' gearbox changing up mid corner or mid overtake. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but I think I'm in a better position to judge the current and upcoming gear requirements (given grip conditions, acceleration/deceleration required) than my gearbox.
Granted the downshift veto thing is less likely to be a problem, but I still don't like the idea of a piece of software being able to decide whether I can change down or not - I may need that lower gear in an emergency for example.
I see your point, but surely you can drive to the dynamics of the system...? Just what are you doing in a corner to warrant it to change gear... surely you've selected the wrong gear in the first place..?
Podie said:Now granted you Alpina boys are unlikely to be looking out of the side window whilst drifting round your favourite hairpin bend
Gotta agree with Ted on this..? Why..?
You may be the nicest bloke in the world, but I just fail to see the logic in the above comments...
, but you wouldn't want your magic gearbox to suddenly change up mid-slide now, would you?jeremyc said:
Gotta agree with Ted on this..? Why..?
You may be the nicest bloke in the world, but I just fail to see the logic in the above comments...
Now granted you Alpina boys are unlikely to be looking out of the side window whilst drifting round your favourite hairpin bend
oi.. I'm not an Alpina boy...!Podie said:How about the scenario where two bends are seperated by a short straight: putting the power down exiting the first corner (in an appropriate gear) I estimate that I can reach ("making progress"
I see your point, but surely you can drive to the dynamics of the system...? Just what are you doing in a corner to warrant it to change gear... surely you've selected the wrong gear in the first place..?
) and set up for the next corner by holding the current gear (albeit maybe close to or on the limiter by the time I near the braking zone). What I don't need is my gearbox changing up just before I reach the braking zone and then changing down again as I lift off and brake. Or am I being too pernickity and a control freak - perhaps I would get used to it.
Anyway, I'd be perfectly happy with that Challenge Stradale 'box in any situation.....
jeremyc said:
I see your point, but surely you can drive to the dynamics of the system...? Just what are you doing in a corner to warrant it to change gear... surely you've selected the wrong gear in the first place..?
How about the scenario where two bends are seperated by a short straight: putting the power down exiting the first corner (in an appropriate gear) I estimate that I can reach ("making progress"
What I don't need is my gearbox changing up just before I reach the braking zone and then changing down again as I lift off and brake. Or am I being too pernickity and a control freak - perhaps I would get used to it.
Anyway, I'd be perfectly happy with that Challenge Stradale 'box in any situation.....
Hmmm... I'm still sure that if the ratios in the box are picked correctly by the manufacturer, then this scenario is unlikely...
Ok I'm biassed on this, but the gearbox in the DB9 is brilliant. You can drive the car in 'fully auto' mode just like a conventional automatic or by Paddles. The display on the dash indicates weather you are in 'D' (automatic) or a number shows what paddle gear you are in. It will let you red line each gear, but there is a safety feature that the gear number goes from green to red, then flashes red. I think it flashes for a couple of seconds before changing up or down for you (not tried it too many times...yet).
In other words, all the fun, but stops you breaking it.
The only slight negative would be that a rapid changed down could be bit quicker. This is where the Vanquish 'manual' paddles are much quicker.
In other words, all the fun, but stops you breaking it.
The only slight negative would be that a rapid changed down could be bit quicker. This is where the Vanquish 'manual' paddles are much quicker.
shadytree said:
The only slight negative would be that a rapid changed down could be bit quicker. This is where the Vanquish 'manual' paddles are much quicker.
Different type of box...
The Vanquish has paddles connected to a manual box, whereas the DB9 has an auto box (in effect)... so their execution is slightly different.
The DB9 is a conventional auto with a torque converter not a robotised manual, and all the better for it!
On the general topic I disagree.
I had a Maserati QP for 2 days whilst my 360 was in for service and it was awfull in that car.
Maybe in full attack mode in a proper sports car it's OK but in that you want to be able to waft, at least some of the time, and you can't.
Downchanges trouble me because if you're braking into a corner you can get a sudden heave of engine braking you weren't after.
In a manual I can come up to a tight corner and go from 5th to 2nd if I want directly and feed the clutch back in, not get it dumped in by the computer.
Certainly vindicated my original decision to go manual on my 360 for me anyway.
On the general topic I disagree.
I had a Maserati QP for 2 days whilst my 360 was in for service and it was awfull in that car.
Maybe in full attack mode in a proper sports car it's OK but in that you want to be able to waft, at least some of the time, and you can't.
Downchanges trouble me because if you're braking into a corner you can get a sudden heave of engine braking you weren't after.
In a manual I can come up to a tight corner and go from 5th to 2nd if I want directly and feed the clutch back in, not get it dumped in by the computer.
Certainly vindicated my original decision to go manual on my 360 for me anyway.
driven 360 f1 and db9, different cars i know but for gearbox comparison the aston was the auto choice, this will always be a split camp preferance, i still prefer the manual in my f355 gts, i just love to blip the throttle and pop and bang the engine,and theirs nothing quite like dropping the clutch at 5k rpm. and smoking them p zeros, manual aston would be my choice, not here for another year.
Ive been driving an 03 Maserati 4200 CC for the last 4 weeks and 800 miles over varied driving and I cannot stand the paddle shifts.
Basically because I don't feel 100% in control and it takes away the enjoyment of actually changing gears yourself.
Also the auto mode is rubbish, pulling away from standstill, it's like your grandma is riding the clutch (although this is a courtesy car with 10K on the clock and may be a little worn) fast changes just don't seem fast and there seems to be little evidence of matching revs on downchange unless you are doing over 5000 rpm.
From my experience of this car give me a clutch and a gear lever anyday.
Thank god I got my Tuscan RR back yesterday....now that's a real car!
cheers
Whitey
Basically because I don't feel 100% in control and it takes away the enjoyment of actually changing gears yourself.
Also the auto mode is rubbish, pulling away from standstill, it's like your grandma is riding the clutch (although this is a courtesy car with 10K on the clock and may be a little worn) fast changes just don't seem fast and there seems to be little evidence of matching revs on downchange unless you are doing over 5000 rpm.
From my experience of this car give me a clutch and a gear lever anyday.
Thank god I got my Tuscan RR back yesterday....now that's a real car!
cheers
Whitey
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