930 911 Turbo. Is it really that hairy?
Discussion
JBL930 said:
'mod the hell out of it' is a little strong, but fair point 
bit more then a little strong no? I have no direct experience (yet) but from my understanding the following is quite easy (please correct my numbers if way out)
'simple' mods turbo/headers/intercooler can be done be by the average home mechanic adds probably 70hp and give you 500 rpm on the bottom end. Changing cams is trickier but still doable for the enthusiastic home mechanic and gives you a more usable top end. Fuelling to suit HAS to be set by people who knows.
If you went to actually 'mod the hell' out of one you could build yourself a monster that both goes like a rocket and handles well. Building a car that embarrases much newer exotic machinery is not impossible. The are very detuned cars in standard form that are very susceptible to modding.
However the standard 930 is imho a quite capable classic GT car, comfortable and effortless on the motorway though perhaps a touch loud..
Clearly Crimp has a different view and is probably extra happy as he sold it at a recent market top. It's simply a matter of opinion.
Not sure if its been mentioned before but.. go and try one?
I bought mine in 99, and drove it for a year or two in stock spec, and it was fine for a while. I didn't want a 964 or 993, I loved the 930, but couldn't live with the mediocre performance compared to modern stuff, and yes it was a slippery slope......
I really don't think you need to go crazy with mods, just changing the exhaust system and turbo alone will make a big difference. You may not make huge gains in peak power, but it'll spool up much quicker giving you more power earlier, whilst holding power all the way up to the red line. Effectively more power under the curve......
You can start to get hooked on tweaking a 'little more' though...... If I was starting again with what I've learned over the last 13 years of ownership, I would find a 930 with good leakdown numbers, I would keep the CIS system but use an adjustable WUR, change the exhaust, turbo, cams, intercooler and run no more than 1.0bar and be happy with a little over 400bhp..... 930's with 400+ BHP are serious fun, very little lag, light weight, and will keep up with all the modern stuff whilst looking as cool as f
k! Win win IMO
I really don't think you need to go crazy with mods, just changing the exhaust system and turbo alone will make a big difference. You may not make huge gains in peak power, but it'll spool up much quicker giving you more power earlier, whilst holding power all the way up to the red line. Effectively more power under the curve......
You can start to get hooked on tweaking a 'little more' though...... If I was starting again with what I've learned over the last 13 years of ownership, I would find a 930 with good leakdown numbers, I would keep the CIS system but use an adjustable WUR, change the exhaust, turbo, cams, intercooler and run no more than 1.0bar and be happy with a little over 400bhp..... 930's with 400+ BHP are serious fun, very little lag, light weight, and will keep up with all the modern stuff whilst looking as cool as f
k! Win win IMOmudy said:
Jonathan - I understand how everything works in the mods you mention except for the warm up regulator - can you tell us how that affects performance?
(also while we are here - what turbo and intercooler would you recommend out of interest?)
Thanks!
preferably one that lights up the same day you push the loud pedal down. (also while we are here - what turbo and intercooler would you recommend out of interest?)
Thanks!
The WUR is what adjusts your fuel between warming up, cruise and when on boost. When you change something from stock, like a better exhaust and turbo, then you will build boost sooner than stock, which will in turn make your fuelling too rich too early.
Everything in the stock fuel system is mechanical, the WUR has a hose going to it from the manifold so it is seeing actual manifold pressure. This manipulates a diaphragm, which adjusts the control pressure of the fuel to the fuel head, which in turn adjusts the amount of fuel going to the injectors.
Stock cars are set up rich anyway, and would benifit from having an adjustable WUR fitted, you would gain a little power by having optimal AFR's, and save money on fuel etc...
Modified cars will need the adjustable WUR, as manifold pressure will build much quicker, richening up the AFR's too early and making the car bog down..... Whilst also at risk of washing the oil out of the cylinders causing premature wear.
Another little gadget that is available with the adjustable WUR is a small solenoid that goes in the hose between the manifold and the WUR, it is also connected to a spark source so it has a correct RPM signal. You can then fit a little chip so that the solenoid opens at a given RPM, say 5500rpm or whatever. This basically holds the boost from the WUR until your fuelling requires richening up, getting rid of any rich midrange areas, and allows you to tune your fuel more completely.
Start Patterson at http://www.spautobahn.com/ has this whole process down to an art, and will go through your fuel system to ensure even distribution to each injector. There are no fail safes with CIS, so it has to be done right......
This gives you some info on the adjustable WUR and its benefits, scroll through and look at the graphs, you can see the improvement in fuelling and the little gains in power too http://www.930wur.com/
Everything in the stock fuel system is mechanical, the WUR has a hose going to it from the manifold so it is seeing actual manifold pressure. This manipulates a diaphragm, which adjusts the control pressure of the fuel to the fuel head, which in turn adjusts the amount of fuel going to the injectors.
Stock cars are set up rich anyway, and would benifit from having an adjustable WUR fitted, you would gain a little power by having optimal AFR's, and save money on fuel etc...
Modified cars will need the adjustable WUR, as manifold pressure will build much quicker, richening up the AFR's too early and making the car bog down..... Whilst also at risk of washing the oil out of the cylinders causing premature wear.
Another little gadget that is available with the adjustable WUR is a small solenoid that goes in the hose between the manifold and the WUR, it is also connected to a spark source so it has a correct RPM signal. You can then fit a little chip so that the solenoid opens at a given RPM, say 5500rpm or whatever. This basically holds the boost from the WUR until your fuelling requires richening up, getting rid of any rich midrange areas, and allows you to tune your fuel more completely.
Start Patterson at http://www.spautobahn.com/ has this whole process down to an art, and will go through your fuel system to ensure even distribution to each injector. There are no fail safes with CIS, so it has to be done right......
This gives you some info on the adjustable WUR and its benefits, scroll through and look at the graphs, you can see the improvement in fuelling and the little gains in power too http://www.930wur.com/
As far as what turbo and intercooler, that really does depend on what you are looking to achieve. If you are just wanting simple bolt on stuff that requires no modification, and simple for you to return to stock, then contact http://www.rarlyl8.com/ in the states, he has great exhaust systems, deals with turbo chargers, and has developed a replacement intercooler that bolts straight in and retains the rear wiper and aircon..... If you are aiming higher then it's all down to what level you want to go to.....
Either way I would use Stuart at SP if you are sticking with CIS, he really knows his way around the 930 fuel system, and will fit your bolt on stuff, then tune it all in for you too...... Unless you fancy doing it yourself, which many do
Either way I would use Stuart at SP if you are sticking with CIS, he really knows his way around the 930 fuel system, and will fit your bolt on stuff, then tune it all in for you too...... Unless you fancy doing it yourself, which many do
Edited by JBL930 on Wednesday 8th August 17:03
Thanks - what a fantastic response!
If i go the way it will be bolt on simple power hikes - ive heard of rarly - hes very active on pelican isnt he? I already have a dual outlet fabspeed exhaust but would one day love a better turbo and intercooler and maybe cams as midrange is pretty poor on these cars
Thanks again jonathan
If i go the way it will be bolt on simple power hikes - ive heard of rarly - hes very active on pelican isnt he? I already have a dual outlet fabspeed exhaust but would one day love a better turbo and intercooler and maybe cams as midrange is pretty poor on these cars
Thanks again jonathan
Yes he posts a lot on Pelican, i've not heard any complaints about his stuff, apart from him taking too long sorting out heat exhangers for his headers (manifolds), but i think he has that sorted now too as he was still developing them at the time. His stuff isn't the cheapest, but he uses the best materials and it really is just bolt on, no messing about trying to force stuff to fit.
There's only one area where we disagree, he says he can get perfect fueling on a modified 930 without the solenoid i mentioned, and just by 'adjusting and adjusting' the WUR...... He is wrong, i think he said it without thinking and is too stubborn to admit it...... But that means nothing, he even calls himself a 'crotchety old bd', so it's to be expected
I would buy his stuff in an instant, so take that as you wish. You can get almost everything you need from him, then if you wanted cams he or Stuart at SP could sort that out, then just enjoy it.....
Would you do the work yourself?
There's only one area where we disagree, he says he can get perfect fueling on a modified 930 without the solenoid i mentioned, and just by 'adjusting and adjusting' the WUR...... He is wrong, i think he said it without thinking and is too stubborn to admit it...... But that means nothing, he even calls himself a 'crotchety old b
d', so it's to be expected I would buy his stuff in an instant, so take that as you wish. You can get almost everything you need from him, then if you wanted cams he or Stuart at SP could sort that out, then just enjoy it.....
Would you do the work yourself?
I'd love to say yes - but apart from servicing my beetle many moons ago I've never swung a wrench in anger - id probably ask Dom at Svp if he could do it
Having just bought a house and all that comes with it I won't be even thinking of embarking on this project until autumn next year at the earliest - but it's been something that's bugged me for awhile now - it sounds ridiculous but a std (with aftermarket exhaust) just isn't fast enough!
Thanks again jbl - as ever - very informative
Having just bought a house and all that comes with it I won't be even thinking of embarking on this project until autumn next year at the earliest - but it's been something that's bugged me for awhile now - it sounds ridiculous but a std (with aftermarket exhaust) just isn't fast enough!
Thanks again jbl - as ever - very informative
Edited by mudy on Wednesday 8th August 22:08
Edited by mudy on Wednesday 8th August 22:09
BertBert said:
So that's how you know that they are flawed (along with more modern TTs) - the fact that people think they are too slow and spend shedloads on whanging up the power.
Flawed and slow compared to what though?Its a 35yr old design that trounces just about anything from that era, and with some pretty modest modifications you'll keep up with pretty much anything modern (to a point where the driver not the car makes the difference).
If you are in to classic 'supercars', what are the realistic options?
The original three-liter 930 is a very different animal to the 3.3. Sure, the 3.3 has more torque and is a good deal more comfortable, but it is heavier. I like the 3.3 as a GT car!
The 3.0 is rough and raw by comparison, no power brakes, no power steering; its a race car for the road.
In the words of Nick Faure "Porsche was very concerned about making the Turbo handle properly, and it handleed impeccably... The 3.3 destroyed the three-litre's handling. It was a much heavier animal to drive."
Original three-litre cars are very rare outside the US, and the US cars were crippled with 90 kinds of mods to comply it there.
Up until quite recently this great car has been neglected by many potential drivers and collectors who were persuaded by the copyrighting of salesmen when they referred to the UPGRADED 3.3. The three-litre was never upgraded, it was "biggered".
If you can find and afford the $100k+ for a well setup and cared for three-litre, take it for a drive and see what Dr Porsche intended for his turbo.
The 3.0 is rough and raw by comparison, no power brakes, no power steering; its a race car for the road.
In the words of Nick Faure "Porsche was very concerned about making the Turbo handle properly, and it handleed impeccably... The 3.3 destroyed the three-litre's handling. It was a much heavier animal to drive."
Original three-litre cars are very rare outside the US, and the US cars were crippled with 90 kinds of mods to comply it there.
Up until quite recently this great car has been neglected by many potential drivers and collectors who were persuaded by the copyrighting of salesmen when they referred to the UPGRADED 3.3. The three-litre was never upgraded, it was "biggered".
If you can find and afford the $100k+ for a well setup and cared for three-litre, take it for a drive and see what Dr Porsche intended for his turbo.
SEE YA said:
We both agree there prices have gone as you say gone north and up in value.
I would never get a 930 like mine now, for what I paid for mine five years ago that is for sure.
Also the market is tight for everybody, a 911 is not at the top of people's list of things to buy these days. Just because they are not selling, does not make then a bad car. In the last few years the world market has changed.
Just surfing around and read this.I would never get a 930 like mine now, for what I paid for mine five years ago that is for sure.
Also the market is tight for everybody, a 911 is not at the top of people's list of things to buy these days. Just because they are not selling, does not make then a bad car. In the last few years the world market has changed.
Edited by SEE YA on Wednesday 8th August 08:33
Oh how times change.... Air Cooled Porsche are perhaps the most desirable of mainstream modest budget classic.
The world woke up...
Yes P50 and this was from See Ya, one of the more optimistic 930 owners on here - I think the recent rises have caught even him by surprise!
On a side note, it's so sad to see Jonathan's (JBL) great contributions from a few years back - his knowledge really was incredible - RIP Jonathan
On a side note, it's so sad to see Jonathan's (JBL) great contributions from a few years back - his knowledge really was incredible - RIP Jonathan
mudy said:
Yes P50 and this was from See Ya, one of the more optimistic 930 owners on here - I think the recent rises have caught even him by surprise!
On a side note, it's so sad to see Jonathan's (JBL) great contributions from a few years back - his knowledge really was incredible - RIP Jonathan
Yes they did however, I did not buy it to see it jump up in value.On a side note, it's so sad to see Jonathan's (JBL) great contributions from a few years back - his knowledge really was incredible - RIP Jonathan
It just happened in the last few years?
Optimistic not me, its just how the market is now with regards to the 930. Even if they dropped in value, this would open the market to more buyers would it not? It would not matter to me as I love the car.
Its the whole classic car world on certain models. Even car shows bigger crowds for events.
Edited by SEE YA on Monday 22 December 21:47
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