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ILoveMondeo

Original Poster:

7,647 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
A technician of mine who is employed to do field work for customers is refusing to go to a clients site on Tuesday next week because he has has holiday booked the next day (and for a couple of weeks afterwards) and has a 3am flight.

In my mind that's gross misconduct and I'm quite happy to sack him today. He was going to be put on warning next monday anyway, with monthly reviews and verbal/written warnings if he didnt meet his performance targets.

He doesn't have any holiday allowance left so cant take the day as holiday and I'm not inclined to offer him the day as unpaid leave either.

He's also been pissing and moaning about 5-6 hours overtime a MONTH and wanting time off in lieu, where his contract clearly states reasonable overtime is expected and I dont think 5-6 hours a month is particularly unreasonable, especially when his colleagues work 60 hours weeks and dont expect any overtime or time off (they do get given it as it happens, but they actually work hard)

Anyway, does a refusal to work amount to gross misconduct and can I bin him?

Cheers

Dave






ReaperCushions

1,726 posts

53 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
Remind me to never work for you...ever.

Looks like you are searching for a reason to bin him before this incident anyway.

A reasonable manager would accommodate his request, swap him out for a more local job, send someone else... Only ask him to do it if there is literally no other option. And then I would expect the employee to accept the request and do the job, as the manager would have shown he tried everything he could to sort it for him, like a good manager should.

In other words, if you were a better manager, you might have more respect from your employees.


Piersman2

3,129 posts

68 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
ReaperCushions said:
Remind me to never work for you...ever.

Looks like you are searching for a reason to bin him before this incident anyway.

A reasonable manager would accommodate his request, swap him out for a more local job, send someone else... Only ask him to do it if there is literally no other option. And then I would expect the employee to accept the request and do the job, as the manager would have shown he tried everything he could to sort it for him, like a good manager should.

In other words, if you were a better manager, you might have more respect from your employees.
All fair comment, but didn't really answer the OP's question.

To which i will add that I don't know the answer but am interested to see if it could technically be gross misconduct. My thoughts are that it should be, but I'm sure it can't be that easy. smile

phil-sti

745 posts

48 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
failing to follow a management request could be seen as gross misconduct but he has said he has a 3am flight, you may not see that as your problem but he isn't flat refusing to work and what do you think a tribunal will think?

BoRED S2upid

9,428 posts

109 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
Not sure this qualifies as gross misconduct but im not Employment law specialist. If you did sack him and it went to tribunal they could well see you as being a bit harsh.

Has he had any warnings verbal or written before? If not and hes a pain in the arse refusing to do this job is his first, followed by final written warning if he misbehaves again.
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zygalski

1,030 posts

14 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
Dave.
On the face of it, I don't think you're being unreasonable at all.

A few hours per month paid O/T is nothing, especially if it states in the contract of employment that some O/T is expected. Around 3m people don't have jobs at the moment. Poor chap...!

As far as the holiday issue, I think it depends of this guys previous.
Has he been down the disciplinary/verbal warning route before? How does his sickness/attendance record compare to other employees?
I think stating that they are unable to work having taken all their annual leave is unreasonable - all things being equal, he should have arranged his affairs better.

It's not as easy as you'd think to bin people who aren't fit for their roles, but having said that, bear in mind that 90% of those who say that they'll take you to a tribunal never do. At best they probably end up down the CAB, discuss their options, then realise they don't have a leg to stand on.

Countdown

6,338 posts

65 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
ReaperCushions said:
Remind me to never work for you...ever.

Looks like you are searching for a reason to bin him before this incident anyway.

A reasonable manager would accommodate his request, swap him out for a more local job, send someone else... Only ask him to do it if there is literally no other option. And then I would expect the employee to accept the request and do the job, as the manager would have shown he tried everything he could to sort it for him, like a good manager should.

In other words, if you were a better manager, you might have more respect from your employees.
I would suggest that both parties try to look for way to solve the issue rather than the employee presenting it as a "my way or the highway" thing.

To the OP - if you've tried to make reasonable adjustments and can't accommodate his request then it's misconduct (not gross misconduct). As such it would probably be a first or final written warning depending on what your Staff Code of Conduct says.

davepoth

19,878 posts

68 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
Without going into the morals of this, if you are putting him on a warning on Monday it may be worth making it a final warning if you have any leeway on the matter. After that warning, give him one more opportunity to make the visit. If he still refuses I should think that'd be enough to dismiss. I'm not an HR advisor, I've just been in a lot of disciplinary meetings. wink

ILoveMondeo

Original Poster:

7,647 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
In response to reapercushions...

Really? He's on 40k a year and refusing to do his job?

He is the only person available.

Yes, his performance has been miserable and it's not the first time he's refused to do work, excuses range from "picking my car up from the garage" to to "wifes birthday"

Every time he does this it costs the business money as we lose out on chargeable work. 9 times out of 10 the client will go elsewhere, so the knock on effect from loss of future business is important too.

My mindset / work-ethic would dictate that he should have thought of that before hand and booked a day or 1/2 day holiday on the Tuesday.

He "only" gets 25 days holiday too!!

I've been personally carrying him for 6 months now too, picking up the slack and a 70 hour week is fairly normal and he's refused to take on any of my workload anyway.

This morning he spent about an hour playing the google game with the hurdles man.

So I should give him a "quiet day" in the office because he's off on his hols the following day.

What am I paying him for?








Edited by ILoveMondeo on Wednesday 8th August 13:36

zygalski

1,030 posts

14 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
Yes...
but how far down the disciplinary route is he?

BoRED S2upid

9,428 posts

109 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
ILoveMondeo said:
Yes, his performance has been miserable and it's not the first time he's refused to do work, excuses range from "picking my car up from the garage" to to "wifes birthday"
Then you issued him with his first warning when he refused to work the first time? or docked his pay?

Tribunals will ask these questions you can't go straight to gross missconduct unless hes stealing or something equally as serious.

Out of interest him doing this job will mean he finishes work at what time of night?

Gargamel

5,316 posts

130 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
Don't tell us, tell him.

Nothing formal, just sit him down and explain that he is putting himself on the wrong side of you, his perfomance isn't what you expect and that this latest request has annoyed you.

See what he says and then ask him straight out, is he going to go to the client site yes or no.

Decide from his response.

Tyrewrecker

6,419 posts

23 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
ILoveMondeo said:
A technician of mine who is employed to do field work for customers is refusing to go to a clients site on Tuesday next week because he has has holiday booked the next day (and for a couple of weeks afterwards) and has a 3am flight.

In my mind that's gross misconduct and I'm quite happy to sack him today. He was going to be put on warning next monday anyway, with monthly reviews and verbal/written warnings if he didnt meet his performance targets.

He doesn't have any holiday allowance left so cant take the day as holiday and I'm not inclined to offer him the day as unpaid leave either.

He's also been pissing and moaning about 5-6 hours overtime a MONTH and wanting time off in lieu, where his contract clearly states reasonable overtime is expected and I dont think 5-6 hours a month is particularly unreasonable, especially when his colleagues work 60 hours weeks and dont expect any overtime or time off (they do get given it as it happens, but they actually work hard)

Anyway, does a refusal to work amount to gross misconduct and can I bin him?

Cheers

Dave
You sound like a right . It is not unreasonable to get some time back or some unpaid leave.

sunoco69

1,057 posts

34 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
ILoveMondeo said:
Really? He's on 40k a year and refusing to do his job?

He is the only person available.

Yes, his performance has been miserable and it's not the first time he's refused to do work, excuses range from "picking my car up from the garage" to to "wifes birthday"

Every time he does this it costs the business money as we lose out on chargeable work. 9 times out of 10 the client will go elsewhere, so the knock on effect from loss of future business is important too.

My mindset / work-ethic would dictate that he should have thought of that before hand and booked a day or 1/2 day holiday on the Tuesday.

He "only" gets 25 days holiday too!!

I've been personally carrying him for 6 months now too, picking up the slack and a 70 hour week is fairly normal and he's refused to take on any of my workload anyway.

This morning he spent about an hour playing the google game with the hurdles man.

So I should give him a "quiet day" in the office because he's off on his hols the following day.

What am I paying him for?
My advice,

Sack him and hire me. I would work my nuts off for a lot less than that. But I think that is the main difference that I have noticed in my last couple of years. I came back to the civilian world in 2008 after 22 years in the Army and whilst there are many hard working, honest and disciplined people around, there are also a hell of a lot of moaning, lazy git's.
A little unpaid work will benefit the company and if the company moves forward then so do the staff!

Mr Mondeo I am serious, I will happily work and travel for that sort of money.

BoRED S2upid

9,428 posts

109 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
sunoco69 said:
ILoveMondeo said:
Really? He's on 40k a year and refusing to do his job?

He is the only person available.

Yes, his performance has been miserable and it's not the first time he's refused to do work, excuses range from "picking my car up from the garage" to to "wifes birthday"

Every time he does this it costs the business money as we lose out on chargeable work. 9 times out of 10 the client will go elsewhere, so the knock on effect from loss of future business is important too.

My mindset / work-ethic would dictate that he should have thought of that before hand and booked a day or 1/2 day holiday on the Tuesday.

He "only" gets 25 days holiday too!!

I've been personally carrying him for 6 months now too, picking up the slack and a 70 hour week is fairly normal and he's refused to take on any of my workload anyway.

This morning he spent about an hour playing the google game with the hurdles man.

So I should give him a "quiet day" in the office because he's off on his hols the following day.

What am I paying him for?
My advice,

Sack him and hire me. I would work my nuts off for a lot less than that. But I think that is the main difference that I have noticed in my last couple of years. I came back to the civilian world in 2008 after 22 years in the Army and whilst there are many hard working, honest and disciplined people around, there are also a hell of a lot of moaning, lazy git's.

Mr Mondeo I am serious, I will happily work and travel for that sort of money.
Problem solved i'd say.

Tyrewrecker

6,419 posts

23 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
I am inspired that he earns less than 40k and can run and buy a noble and st220, however, everyone is different in terms of mortgage size etc

ILoveMondeo

Original Poster:

7,647 posts

95 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
davepoth said:
Without going into the morals of this, if you are putting him on a warning on Monday it may be worth making it a final warning if you have any leeway on the matter. After that warning, give him one more opportunity to make the visit. If he still refuses I should think that'd be enough to dismiss. I'm not an HR advisor, I've just been in a lot of disciplinary meetings. wink
As I understand it we have to set out objectives and targets, then a review, at the review (if it happens) he can be accompanied and we have to essentially tell him he's getting a formal warning. Do this two more times and he can be dismissed.

With regard to the final say, that's entirely mine, with a nod from one of the Directors but they are more pissed off with him than I am and he's making me look bad as a result.

I've had to apologise to the sales team today on behalf of the technical department because of the lack of support they are getting from him.

Personally I'm desperate for him to work out, he's fairly good technically, if a bit of a slow learner, I just need him to up his work-rate and show a bit more commitment to the job! It's well paid, but involved a reasonable amount of travel and a bit of overtime. He gets loads of training and the opportunity to get involved in interesting work and projects. It's a good role, and one a lot of techies bogged down in boring day-to-day in-house support would jump at!

I should also add, that all this has happened whilst I'm supposed to be on holiday this week, yet I worked on a clients site Monday (12 hour day, not including 3 hours driving) and I've worked yesterday and today too.. Typically sorting out st he should be dealing with!!

I hope you can understand the frustration!


TIGA84

3,242 posts

100 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
Sounds like you need more staff.

Tyrewrecker

6,419 posts

23 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
Ok, sack him then.

ReaperCushions

1,726 posts

53 months

[news] 
Wednesday 8th August 2012 quote quote all
ILoveMondeo said:
This morning he spent about an hour playing the google game with the hurdles man.



What am I paying him for?




Edited by ILoveMondeo on Wednesday 8th August 13:36
You've spent an hour on an Internet forum asking how to get rid of him rather than doing proper formal research. With HR or a legal advisor.

Look forward to the tribunal.... 'the men on the Internet told me it was ok'



Look, I'm not being a knob on purpose, but you need to look at your approach very seriously to this one. It sounds like you've got a pretty disgruntled employee on your hands who isn't performing. Go down the most appropriate legal route you can being advised properly.

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