|
Raverbaby
Original Poster
742 posts
56 months
|
Hi, Just had a knock on the door from a chap from "Nationwide Energy Services" offering me free cavity insulation.
As I live in a row of 5 upper and lower flats 2 elderly neighbours either side of me have agreed to this.
On the survey form he's carried out theres no charge listed (marked as nil) so my question really is, is this legit and has anyone else had this done.
Its all timber framed houses with breezeblock seperating the flats.
Thanks.
|
|
|
944fan
1,979 posts
55 months
|
The funding comes from an initiative called CERT, Carbon Emissions Reduction Target. It is basically a requirement on the energy suppliers to spend some of their cash to reduce the amount of carbon wasted in homes. One way they do this is to offer free, or heavily subsidised, loft and cavity insulation.
From that point of view the "free" bit is legit.
Whether it is appropriate to your dwellings construction I couldn't say.
|
|
|
Raverbaby
Original Poster
742 posts
56 months
|
Thanks for your reply, the chap drilled in to the lower flat wall after a walk round and said all was good so I'll just need to take his word for it.
The elderly neighbours are all for it as they tend to be cold through the winter so I didn't want to stop them from getting it.
For houses that were built in 2001 they are quite cold through the winter so hopefully it can't do any harm.
Cheers again.
|
|
|
944fan
1,979 posts
55 months
|
Built in 2001 they should have the cavities filled already, wouldn't be able to get Regs sign off without it. Houses built in the mid to late 90s are quite well known for not having cavity fill when the should have.
If it is not done right it can cause condensation issues but the installer will do an assessment before they start insulating.
It will make a big difference to the comfort factor of your place and should lower your bills to. Best to get it done now as CERT disappears at the end of the year!
|
|
|
Busa mav
962 posts
24 months
|
Raverbaby said: Its all timber framed houses with breezeblock seperating the flats.
Thanks. I dont have a lot of experience with timber framed houses , but I would be treading very carefully on this. Do some research and ask them what experience they have . What is the make up of the external walls ? I am normally a strong supporter of insulating a traditional build but this worries me.
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
philmots
2,556 posts
130 months
|
I'm sceptical of this... I've no idea, or call me old fashioned. But, aren't the cavities there for a reason? for air flow etc?
|
|
|
Raverbaby
Original Poster
742 posts
56 months
|
Busa mav said: I dont have a lot of experience with timber framed houses , but I would be treading very carefully on this.
Do some research and ask them what experience they have .
What is the make up of the external walls ?
I am normally a strong supporter of insulating a traditional build but this worries me. Hi, the external walls are brick, then I'm 99.9% sure its breezeblock,(sorry when I said timber I was meaning internally mainly) from there its dot'n'dab wall to gyprock. The seperation of the upper & lower flats is timber joists( lower floor to upper ceiling). The seperation of flats on each side is breezeblock, 2 skin, but I dont think they will fill this as access would only be fron inside the flats. The inner partitions are timber. The chap said a certificate would be issued for use with any home report should I be selling up. philmots said: I'm sceptical of this... I've no idea, or call me old fashioned. But, aren't the cavities there for a reason? for air flow etc? To be honest I don't know  Heres a pic of a similar house to give you an idea, sorry the qaulity or size isn't great, was taken from rightmove website.  Thanks
|
|
|
Raverbaby
Original Poster
742 posts
56 months
|
TheLastPost said:  I agree. From the description, it sounds like it might be what is called 'cross wall construction' (masonry gable and party walls, with semi-structural timber frame infill panels between them. Common technique in the 1960's and early '70's). On a normal masonry wall (to answer Philmot's question) the cavity is there just to provide a break between the inner and outer leafs, to provide a gap that damp from rain penetration can't 'jump'. The insulation used doesn't provide sufficient path for this moisture, either, so it's not usually a problem. With timber frame infill panels, you need to allow any moisture that penetrates the outer skin to be able to dry out between periods of rain, otherwise the inner timber frame will rot out. The insulation may inhibit this. There is also greatly increased potential for 'interstitial condensation' to cause damage (this is where the moisture from warm, damp air within the house condenses out within the cavity as it cools on its passage through the wall). Finally, if they're flats, do you actually own the structure to be able to agree to the installation of insulation in the cavity? It's not unusual on flats for the basic shell of the building to be owned by a management company, with the leasehold ownership of the flat itself only extending as far as the plasterboard on the inner face of the wall. Hi, thanks for the input, Yes I and the neighbours own ours but there are a couple rented further down the line. There are no factor fees or management companies. I'm just sceptical about folk chapping my door to try to flog me something, normally I don't entertain salesman but kind of feel a little pressured due to the others signing up thinking its the best thing since sliced bread.
|
|
|
Raverbaby
Original Poster
742 posts
56 months
|
TheLastPost said: To be fair that doesn't look like crosswall construction. And it looks too modern - 1990's?
But from your revised description, it sounds as though the whole external shell is masonry construction anyway: just to be clear, you're telling us that an external wall is brick outer leaf, then cavity, then concrete block inner leaf, then pasterboard-on-dabs dry lining?
If so then it's just traditional masonry construction and cavity insulation is no problem - go for it! Hi, it was built in 2001, yes the whole external wall is brick, I know that behind my dot n dab plasterboard walls there is grey breezeblock as I removed a socket on the outer wall to check. So its definately BRICK > CAVITY > BREEZEBLOCK > DOT'N'DAB PLASTERBOARD So they will fill in between the external brick wall and breezeblock? Is this the norm? Thanks
|
|
|
944fan
1,979 posts
55 months
|
Raverbaby said: Hi, it was built in 2001, yes the whole external wall is brick, I know that behind my dot n dab plasterboard walls there is grey breezeblock as I removed a socket on the outer wall to check.
So its definately BRICK > CAVITY > BREEZEBLOCK > DOT'N'DAB PLASTERBOARD
So they will fill in between the external brick wall and breezeblock? Is this the norm?
Thanks Yes they drill through the brick mortar and blow in the insulation between the brick and concrete block. This construction built in 2001 should bloody well have had cavity fill when it was built. Another brown envelope job to the inspector no doubt.
|
|
|
Chrisgr31
7,520 posts
125 months
|
944fan said: Yes they drill through the brick mortar and blow in the insulation between the brick and concrete block. This construction built in 2001 should bloody well have had cavity fill when it was built. Another brown envelope job to the inspector no doubt. Maybe it does have insulation in it! So when does the current scheme end? Ought to get my house down!
|
|
|
944fan
1,979 posts
55 months
|
Chrisgr31 said: 944fan said: Yes they drill through the brick mortar and blow in the insulation between the brick and concrete block. This construction built in 2001 should bloody well have had cavity fill when it was built. Another brown envelope job to the inspector no doubt. Maybe it does have insulation in it! So when does the current scheme end? Ought to get my house down! It might, although I think the OP said the salesman had drilled a hole and scoped it. CERT goes at the end of the year. It is being replaced by the Green Deal, this will allow you to install energy efficiency measures without paying up front. Money is lent to the property and it is recovered through payments on the electrical meter. The payments will be less than or equal to estimated savings for the measures. Although you wont have to pay upfront you will still have to pay, whereas currently you can get it for free as the OP has found. Get it done now, there maybe a huge rush towards the end of the year
|
|
|
944fan
1,979 posts
55 months
|
TheLastPost said: Chrisgr31 said: Maybe it does have insulation in it! It's unlikely at that build date - cavity insulation wouldn't have been necessary to comply with the Building Regulations then in force, and commercial housebuilders seldom spend money on a specification they don't need. Minimum U-values for walls were specified in the 1990s in building regs. Whilst that doesn't specifically stipulate a filled cavity it is almost unachievable without it (unless there is internal or external insulation as well). These days the u-value required is hard to achieve even with a filled cavity and often something else is needed also. It is very common for 1990s house to not have filled cavities when they should have.
|
|
|
Busa mav
962 posts
24 months
|
as LastPost says , use of turbo blocks as an inner skin was very popular, up to 125 / 150 in some cases.
Being an old fuddy , I have just never taken to them and never specified them , even on extensions.
|
|
|
944fan
1,979 posts
55 months
|
TheLastPost said: 944fan said: Minimum U-values for walls were specified in the 1990s in building regs. Whilst that doesn't specifically stipulate a filled cavity it is almost unachievable without it (unless there is internal or external insulation as well). Not so. Thermal requirements have gradually increased since they were first introduced, but many developers were building with uninsulated cavities until post 2005, from memory. Certainly, we were still building-out previously approved sites with uninsulated cavities when I joined my last job for a major developer in 2007. You did simple 'trade off' calculations (nothing like as complex as modern SAP calcs) whereby the slight shortfall in U-value for the wall construction was offset against glazing areas and increased loft insulation. These 'trade offs' gave you the most cost-effective construction methods: the only commercial developers who were insulating cavities pre-2005 Regs were those who were too lazy or incompetent to do the necessary calculations and cost analyses. Interesting. I stand corrected. You mention SAP calcs. I write SAP and RdSAP software and the assumption for any property made after 1991 is that the cavity is insulated. That means you don't get the cavity fill recommendation - and thus come the Green Deal you may not be able to get the finance to do it.
|
|
|
kooky guy
352 posts
36 months
|
I keep ummung and ahing about this. They're running a scheme in Hampshire at the moment to do this free, but the website worries me a little bit.
In their FAQ they specifically state that it cannot cause damp - from what I've heard, this would depend on the wall construction and other factors so this strikes me as not actually true.
They only use a single type of insulation for all properties. Surely that can't be correct? They specify Knauf superfil mineral fibre for cavity wall insulation. Again, shouldn't the choice of material depend on wall constructino, type of property etc?
I like the idea of getting it done - I'm in a detached 50's brick built house that gets very cold in the winter and what with heating oil the price it is, I'm interested in anything that could improve the situation, but all these free schemes seem to be run by chancers just making money off the backs of government grants!
Or am I just paramoid?
|
|
|
944fan
1,979 posts
55 months
|
kooky guy said: I keep ummung and ahing about this. They're running a scheme in Hampshire at the moment to do this free, but the website worries me a little bit.
In their FAQ they specifically state that it cannot cause damp - from what I've heard, this would depend on the wall construction and other factors so this strikes me as not actually true.
They only use a single type of insulation for all properties. Surely that can't be correct? They specify Knauf superfil mineral fibre for cavity wall insulation. Again, shouldn't the choice of material depend on wall constructino, type of property etc?
I like the idea of getting it done - I'm in a detached 50's brick built house that gets very cold in the winter and what with heating oil the price it is, I'm interested in anything that could improve the situation, but all these free schemes seem to be run by chancers just making money off the backs of government grants!
Or am I just paramoid? There are plenty of companies offering CERT funded cavity fill (either free of for a small fee), including big names like Mark Group and the utilities (not recommending these just saying they offer it). If you don't like the look of one of them then go to another. Knauf superfil is very common and is generally fine for most cavities. Unless you have a hard to treat cavity (narrow cavities, exposed to wind driven rain, system build) or a dirty cavity with mortar stuck to the ties then you shouldn't have any problems. If you are worried get the installer to do a bore-scope examination of the cavity. Sometimes you can get interstitial condensation where condensation forms on the inside skin of the wall, Superfil is designed to allow this to drain away. The installer should be registered with CIGA (who provide the 25 year guarantee) and the material they use should be approved by the BBA for the application it is being used for. So pick a reputable firm, some are just in it for the funding.
|
|
