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Turbobird1

Original Poster:

442 posts

34 months

[news] 
Monday 1st October 2012 quote quote all
ok with the increase of efi cars in pro mod what will we do to police traction control

I suggest that as all the main efi systems feature a data logger built in that the ignition timing data be made available to the tech guys on a regular and random basis
if you have ever used a traction control system you will be aware that its obvious from the ignition timing data when its activated
any thoughts??

slinky

15,541 posts

135 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
It's definitely got some merit, but I think it would be rather difficult to enforce properly. With the variety of systems available it would be somewhat difficult for the tech crews to know absolutely that they are looking at the data they "think" they are looking at.

I'm pretty sure, if one was to be a little unscrupulous, that it wouldn't be difficult to mask the "actual" timing curve/graph with an unpoluted graphed value from the timing tables..

The only real way to police it effectively, IMHO, would be to move to a spec ECU a la F1, but that opens up a whole new can of worms!

crikey

1,557 posts

97 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
Sometimes it's like you lot have your own language !

Turbobird1

Original Poster:

442 posts

34 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
Im not so sure its so easy to mssk if i was a tech guy and i wanted to see your ignition timing off a run you just made id escort you to your pit and stand looking over your shoulder while you downloaded the data ( much like the MSA piss test wink ) bearing in mind at the moment there is only motec and BS3 used in pro mod at this time, the tech guy would only need a basic knowledge of the system to be able to look at the timing data and having used it in testing once or twice on the blower car (just so i knew what to look for in other cars) i can tell you its obvious
we need to police this now its no longer a joke...
i want to race on a level laying field

slinky

15,541 posts

135 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one chap..

Is there something that makes you suspect that it may be in use somewhere?
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redvictor

3,111 posts

123 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
Turbobird1 said:
Im not so sure its so easy to mssk if i was a tech guy and i wanted to see your ignition timing off a run you just made id escort you to your pit and stand looking over your shoulder while you downloaded the data ( much like the MSA piss test wink ) bearing in mind at the moment there is only motec and BS3 used in pro mod at this time, the tech guy would only need a basic knowledge of the system to be able to look at the timing data and having used it in testing once or twice on the blower car (just so i knew what to look for in other cars) i can tell you its obvious
we need to police this now its no longer a joke...
i want to race on a level laying field
I'm intriuged. Who is it you think is using traction control then Graham?
Send me a message if you don't want to say on here..

trackday addict

503 posts

95 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
Well we certainly have no plans to use it on PZ2 Graham and have never used it on PZ1 either.
Traction is going to be our biggest learning curve with the big addition of bhp and torque hence needing bigger rear axle, looking at wheel sizing etc.

Going to be a learning curve for sure.
Definitely going to sort the drivers seat out properly after speaking to Simpson as the plain carbon one is crap at dealing with tyre shake and my back is shot next day afterwards !

Tet

1,064 posts

90 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
I've mentioned this before when the Habermann accusations came to light, but I think the only real solution is just to explicitly make it legal. I don't like it, and feel it goes against the spirit of the sport. But it's probably going to end up being too hard to police if it remains prohibited. I know of racers that have used it, although I don't think they've actually gained much from it.

Turbobird1

Original Poster:

442 posts

34 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
i diddnt say i think anyone is but the inescapable fact is we all(ECU equipped) have it....
or the capability and its illegal to use during qualifying and eliminations so how do we police ourselves or rather how do we make it easy for the tech guys to police us,? and dont say trust wink

Robmarriott

570 posts

44 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
How would a traction control system work? Normal wheel speed sensors as the primary 'trigger'?

If so, do you guys use a wheel speed sensor on each wheel for any other reason?

Basically, there must be some sort of physical sign that a system is fitted, surely?

MotorPsycho

1,126 posts

97 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Tet said:
I've mentioned this before when the Habermann accusations came to light, but I think the only real solution is just to explicitly make it legal. I don't like it, and feel it goes against the spirit of the sport. But it's probably going to end up being too hard to police if it remains prohibited. I know of racers that have used it, although I don't think they've actually gained much from it.
Without casting aspersions I can't be the only one who found Timo's constant tyre smoking without lifting at the Euro's potentially suspicious in light of Will Hanna's very well presented claims last winter? Especially when Dennis' car went A to B without fault.

Viva632

33 posts

59 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
A lot of them use 'slew rate' measurements. They measure the rate of acceleration of the engine or a driveline component and if that acceleration is over a certain rate, (usually programmed by the racer), then wheelspin is deemed to be occuring and the system will take some sort of action to reduce power.

ribaric

195 posts

61 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Slew rates can be derived from anywhere on the drive line, how could it be policed?

This will be a problem.

Turbobird1

Original Poster:

442 posts

34 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Robmarriott said:
How would a traction control system work? Normal wheel speed sensors as the primary 'trigger'?

If so, do you guys use a wheel speed sensor on each wheel for any other reason?

Basically, there must be some sort of physical sign that a system is fitted, surely?
as we use a spool and both wheels always turn together, it would only need a drive shaft sensor
which is fitted as a matter of course on 99% of pro mods for data logging

Turbobird1

Original Poster:

442 posts

34 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
yes it will be difficult, so does that mean dont bother checking and letting people cheat if they want,
or legalize it so its use is not cheating

Turn7

10,982 posts

107 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Whilst Im not initially keen on the idea, I do think that trying to police it will be very difficult. Hence , legalising it makes a form of sense.

My take on it is this - I bet over the years racers have thought any new tech advance is not always a great idea, from things like Lencos, thru to Two steps etc etc. At the end of the day, its just another tool to help you go fast - Isnt it ?

Think how many variables you already have to tune your cars - surely this is just another step on ?


redvictor

3,111 posts

123 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
I wouldn't like to see it. Tuning a car via power management is the difference between getting down the track and not.
You have to use your head,not just your right foot.
Traction control makes it to easy imo.

Turbobird1

Original Poster:

442 posts

34 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
x2

clausy26

160 posts

73 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
MotorPsycho said:
Without casting aspersions I can't be the only one who found Timo's constant tyre smoking without lifting at the Euro's potentially suspicious in light of Will Hanna's very well presented claims last winter? Especially when Dennis' car went A to B without fault.
i thought the same at first i thought they were still in hockenhiem mode then when i thought back it was a tad suspicious

azauk

2 posts

28 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
if someone is cheating it is illegal, end of story. to make it legal because there is not a simple or quick way of finding it out before or after a run is not the way to go. otherwise you might as well start tearing up the rule book.

what we need is a tech department, for the championship ideally, that have the backing and tools to do their job and enforce those rules. FIA representitives who are backed fully (by the men in power and in their tools), to enforce the rules and to check anything they want to keep a level playing field. the main problem with that is two things, the rules are generally from america where the tech and knowledge/parts come from, and the other thing is £££'s to set up the tech crew to do their job.

otherwise we need to give the local tech's the knowledge, tools and backing to do this themselves. cheating is cheating, full stop!

(and thats the second thing i've heard the haberman's have been suspected of, although it is all rumors and nothing has been proved. innocent until proven guilty. hence the discussion now)
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