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Nigel Worc's

Original Poster:

6,969 posts

74 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
We've seen plenty of threads on here about this, some gun happy farming types saying they would, others saying they wouldn't.

One of my local farming types has, two pets supposedly in boarding kennels whilst their owners were on holiday.

Very sad story :

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/9969099.Farmer...

Ganglandboss

7,120 posts

89 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all


"Ee wuz worrying moi sheep!"

Breadvan72

19,734 posts

49 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Farmer Palmer's Legal Charter....


Animals Act 1971, section 9:-

Killing of or injury to dogs worrying livestock.

(1) In any civil proceedings against a person (in this section referred to as the defendant) for killing or causing injury to a dog it shall be a defence to prove—

(a) that the defendant acted for the protection of any livestock and was a person entitled to act for the protection of that livestock; and

(b) that within forty-eight hours of the killing or injury notice thereof was given by the defendant to the officer in charge of a police station.

(2) For the purposes of this section a person is entitled to act for the protection of any livestock if, and only if—

(a) the livestock or the land on which it is belongs to him or to any person under whose express or implied authority he is acting; and

(b) the circumstances are not such that liability for killing or causing injury to the livestock would be excluded by section 5(4) of this Act.

(3)Subject to subsection (4) of this section, a person killing or causing injury to a dog shall be deemed for the purposes of this section to act for the protection of any livestock if, and only if, either—

(a) the dog is worrying or is about to worry the livestock and there are no other reasonable means of ending or preventing the worrying; or

(b) the dog has been worrying livestock, has not left the vicinity and is not under the control of any person and there are no practicable means of ascertaining to whom it belongs.

(4) For the purposes of this section the condition stated in either of the paragraphs of the preceding subsection shall be deemed to have been satisfied if the defendant believed that it was satisfied and had reasonable ground for that belief.

(5) For the purposes of this section—

(a) an animal belongs to any person if he owns it or has it in his possession; and

(b) land belongs to any person if he is the occupier thereof.

MrBrightSi

1,379 posts

56 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Such a massive failure by the kennel which put a farmer in one wk possition.

As a dog owner im pretty upset by the story and hate the thought that his could happen to my dogs.

What a real shame for the owners.

On a side note, i can't really have any strong emotions other than sadness about this, i can't be mad at a farmer doing what he has too, unless it comes to light he is a bit of a tt who enjoys this kind of thing.

Nigel Worc's

Original Poster:

6,969 posts

74 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
MrBrightSi said:
Such a massive failure by the kennel which put a farmer in one wk possition.

As a dog owner im pretty upset by the story and hate the thought that his could happen to my dogs.

What a real shame for the owners.

On a side note, i can't really have any strong emotions other than sadness about this, i can't be mad at a farmer doing what he has too, unless it comes to light he is a bit of a tt who enjoys this kind of thing.
My feelings exactly !
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Willy Nilly

5,204 posts

53 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
I have seen first hand what dogs can do to sheep. I posted the pictures on here, but the mods decided in their wisdom to moderate it out. Had they left them for people to see, perhaps dog owners would realise how serious it is to keep your dogs under control. I am more than happy to post the pictures again.

The sheep in question were prize winning, pedigree sheep, not that it matters. 2, really nice family pets got into a building with heavily pregnant ewes and rounded them into a corner. IIRC there were something like 15 ewes killed, either by the dogs or by being trampled to death by the rest of the flock panicking. One of the ewes had given birth to $15,000 worth of lambs, they had won the Ohio State Fare. Big money sheep.

We get dog walkers walking were every they like. We had one woman a long way from the foot path, like in the wrong field. She knew she wasn't supposed to be there, so a colleague had a (not very diplomatic) word, then her husband came into the yard and threatened him with violence. She thought our bird scarers were some kind of bomb and called the police, who informed her that she was not supposed to be where she was, so tough tit, but still she walks where she likes.

We get people walking their dogs in our hay fields. There is no and has never been a foot path there. They have pushed through the fence. Their dogs st in the grass. I has to bale it, once in a while the baler might block and it is rather unpleasant getting fresh dog st on your hands and having to sit in a tractor for several hours. It must be even less pleasant feeding this hay to your horses and less pleasant still if you are a horse that eats it.

I like dogs, but too many people have dogs that don't have the space for them and think they can walk them where ever they like.

guns80

118 posts

32 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Sad to see someone's pets killed but unfortunately any dogs off the lead near livestock run the risk of being shot. There has been a huge increase in attacks on livestock and I would expect most farmers to have little patience even more so with 2 dogs seemingly with no owners nearby. Perhaps it is not the farmers fault or the kennels or even those particular dogs owners but the other selfish owners who allow their dogs to attack livestock.

Nigel Worc's

Original Poster:

6,969 posts

74 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Willy Nilly said:
I have seen first hand what dogs can do to sheep. I posted the pictures on here, but the mods decided in their wisdom to moderate it out. Had they left them for people to see, perhaps dog owners would realise how serious it is to keep your dogs under control. I am more than happy to post the pictures again.

The sheep in question were prize winning, pedigree sheep, not that it matters. 2, really nice family pets got into a building with heavily pregnant ewes and rounded them into a corner. IIRC there were something like 15 ewes killed, either by the dogs or by being trampled to death by the rest of the flock panicking. One of the ewes had given birth to $15,000 worth of lambs, they had won the Ohio State Fare. Big money sheep.

We get dog walkers walking were every they like. We had one woman a long way from the foot path, like in the wrong field. She knew she wasn't supposed to be there, so a colleague had a (not very diplomatic) word, then her husband came into the yard and threatened him with violence. She thought our bird scarers were some kind of bomb and called the police, who informed her that she was not supposed to be where she was, so tough tit, but still she walks where she likes.

We get people walking their dogs in our hay fields. There is no and has never been a foot path there. They have pushed through the fence. Their dogs st in the grass. I has to bale it, once in a while the baler might block and it is rather unpleasant getting fresh dog st on your hands and having to sit in a tractor for several hours. It must be even less pleasant feeding this hay to your horses and less pleasant still if you are a horse that eats it.

I like dogs, but too many people have dogs that don't have the space for them and think they can walk them where ever they like.
All understood, honestly.

Now , put your pets in kennels, go on holiday ........ like many of us responsible dog owners do, and suffer what has happened in the story .

Sad ..... no ?

Wings

4,486 posts

101 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Willy Nilly said:
I have seen first hand what dogs can do to sheep. I posted the pictures on here, but the mods decided in their wisdom to moderate it out. Had they left them for people to see, perhaps dog owners would realise how serious it is to keep your dogs under control. I am more than happy to post the pictures again.

The sheep in question were prize winning, pedigree sheep, not that it matters. 2, really nice family pets got into a building with heavily pregnant ewes and rounded them into a corner. IIRC there were something like 15 ewes killed, either by the dogs or by being trampled to death by the rest of the flock panicking. One of the ewes had given birth to $15,000 worth of lambs, they had won the Ohio State Fare. Big money sheep.

We get dog walkers walking were every they like. We had one woman a long way from the foot path, like in the wrong field. She knew she wasn't supposed to be there, so a colleague had a (not very diplomatic) word, then her husband came into the yard and threatened him with violence. She thought our bird scarers were some kind of bomb and called the police, who informed her that she was not supposed to be where she was, so tough tit, but still she walks where she likes.

We get people walking their dogs in our hay fields. There is no and has never been a foot path there. They have pushed through the fence. Their dogs st in the grass. I has to bale it, once in a while the baler might block and it is rather unpleasant getting fresh dog st on your hands and having to sit in a tractor for several hours. It must be even less pleasant feeding this hay to your horses and less pleasant still if you are a horse that eats it.

I like dogs, but too many people have dogs that don't have the space for them and think they can walk them where ever they like.
^^^agree, two years ago on holiday at Bridport, Dorset, walking with wife and our GSD along the Dorset coast. Our dog was on lead, lots of other dog walkers about with their dogs off lead, so in the next field when we checked there were no farm animals grazing, we let our dog off her lead. A few moments later, our dog was startled by a sheep running from behind a hedge, a chaced developed with my GSD hounding after the sheep.

Three miles further on we found our GSD standing over the sheep, the sheep was bleeding badly from a wound to it's neck. A group of holidaymakers stood around, requesting that i take a look at what my dog had done to the sheep.

Never in my wildest thoughts would i have ever thought that my GSD would have harmed another animal, i was gutted for the sheep and angry with my dog.

I did make contact with the farmer, and compensated him for the sheep, now always keping my dog on a lead.

shoehorn

580 posts

29 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Wings said:
Never in my wildest thoughts would i have ever thought that my GSD would have harmed another animal
Why do people continually lose sight of the fact that dogs are wild animals,its in their genetics.
you cannot erase millions of years of evolution in a few hundred years of domestication.

I have dogs and livestock.
The farmer is a complete tt.

markcjd

720 posts

73 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Nigel Worc's said:
All understood, honestly.

Now , put your pets in kennels, go on holiday ........ like many of us responsible dog owners do, and suffer what has happened in the story .

Sad ..... no ?
Sad yes, but the farmer has hopefully only resorted to this action to prevent his livestock. Since the introduction of "the right to roam" in Scotland incidences of attacks on livestock have soared. I feel for the owners, who are in no way at fault, but Collie's are bred to chase sheep. A farmer seeing to dogs running wild on his land is likely to act, within the law, to protect a substantial investment. My heart goes out to those that have lost their family pets but the blame must surely lie with the kennels.



wildcat45

3,829 posts

75 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Very unpleasant business all round.

Ultimately it shouldn't happen, and dogs should be kept under contol. But to farmers, its a business loss. How much is a sheep worth? You kill them in the end when you've had use from them. Nothing wrong with that.

Farming is just a business.

In any other business, if stock was damaged would the business owner have the right to exercise instant violence?

Last weekend, a friend of mine lost takings after someone put the windows of his pub in. Had he seen who did it, should he have exacted some sort of summary revenge? I hazard a guess that new windows and the loss of an afternoon's taking cost more than a dead sheep.

There is a fault with the law here. Dogs should be kept under control, and if dangerous, destroyed Destroyed by a vet with an overdose of Ketamine, rather than some angry bumpkin with a 12 bore.

Edited by wildcat45 on Saturday 6th October 02:40

hidetheelephants

8,171 posts

79 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Nigel Worc's said:
We've seen plenty of threads on here about this, some gun happy farming types saying they would, others saying they wouldn't.

One of my local farming types has, two pets supposedly in boarding kennels whilst their owners were on holiday.

Very sad story :

http://www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/9969099.Farmer...
The comments are truly astonishing; the stupid live among us, they are everywhere.

mph1977

7,742 posts

54 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Nigel Worc's said:
All understood, honestly.

Now , put your pets in kennels, go on holiday ........ like many of us responsible dog owners do, and suffer what has happened in the story .

Sad ..... no ?
the Kennels are the ones who are liable here, not the farmer and the Owner of the dogs in question is more likely to get somewhere with the Kennels and it's insurer than with the farmer as all the farmer, his Insurer ( which could be the NFU anyway),the NFU, BASC and various other sundry farming /countryside groups will do is quote the above mentioned piece of legislation

mph1977

7,742 posts

54 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
wildcat45 said:
<snip>
There is a fault with the law here. Dogs should be kept under control, and if dangerous, destroyed Destroyed by a vet with an overdose of Ketamine, rather than some angry bumpkin with a 12 bore.

Edited by wildcat45 on Saturday 6th October 02:40
to make that workable you'd have to have a system as strict if not stricter than motor vehicle licensing , so all dogs would have to be registered, insured ( and there be a DIB scheme for stuff done by untraceable / uninsured dogs ) and branded ...

the law allows Farmers to take action where there is an immediate threat to the life of livestock and by that imminent loss of (part of) his livelihood.

livestock are unable to defend themselves effectively from a dog ...

wildcat do you live in the country ? have you ever worked with on or for a farm or other land related job ?

or are you just another ignorant townie like some of the numpties who commented on the newspaper thread.

Edited by mph1977 on Saturday 6th October 03:40

wildcat45

3,829 posts

75 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
I grew up in the country, my Dad grew up in a Scottish farm, where I visited regurlarly, I had many a childhood holiday in a rural Cambridgeshire village, and I own a home in rural Galloway.

I would regard myself as a townie. Not an ignorant one.

Licensing for dogs should be there and should be strictly enforced. With microchips etc, it is possible, though it would take years to work it all out. That is not a reason not to do it. Irresponsible owners should pay for the actions of their unruly pets.

However. Lets put tjis into context.

My father in law keeps rare birds and also some very expensive goldfish things. Something that costs him thousands.

He lives in a town othe edge of countryside.

Herons will from time to time use his pond as a restaurant. He takes steps to stop tjis with nets and such, but now and again some expensive fish becomes breakfast.

Foxes and wildcats (Not me) and domestic cats have a go at the birds, and at times have caused carnage.

A big financial and emotional loss to my FIL.

Were he to try and solve the problem with a shotgun, he'd be looking down the business end of an. MP5 or whatever cops use now quicker than you can shout "Armed Police Stand Still!). And quite rightly so. Belive me, there have been times when he's considered getting an air rifle to finish off the local cats.

Sadly for him, its just one of those things.

I get why a farmer may use a gun to control vermin. I do not think it is acceptable that they should kill pets for the sake of sheep. Get the dog killed by official means, sue the arse f the owner for damages, have the owner face court for allowing it to happen.

Yes I have a dog. Yes if he killed something on a farm it would be my fault. Yes I have met and know farmers. A tough job but a lot of people have tough jobs, and I do find them a bit whingey at times . Also knowing a few, I would be much happier if they had access to guns restricted.

jatopack

57 posts

116 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
wildcat45 said:
There is a fault with the law here. Dogs should be kept under control, and if dangerous, destroyed Destroyed by a vet with an overdose of Ketamine, rather than some angry bumpkin with a 12 bore.

Edited by wildcat45 on Saturday 6th October 02:40
Fault???? Dead is dead - either via Ketamine or 12 bore - personally I would use a full bore rifle - but that is what I carry for the hares and rabbits.

It is a well known law and fact - "if dogs worry livestock" - if caught = "dead dog".... every dog owner would say "never mine" - and that is why justice is dispensed without discussion.

Even a poster here said his dog never would, until he saw the evidence.

Imagine the court cases and missing dogs - if a vet had to employed!!


wildcat45

3,829 posts

75 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
And who the hell are you to dispense justice without discussion?

I think you have just backed up my point that a lot of people out in the country with guns really ought not to be allowed them.

Put what you said into another context. A bloke living in London or Birmingham. An attitude to guns like that could rightly lead you to your maker at the hands of Police.

Jesus with that attitude, I should get in my car, cruise the local estate and go picking off or at least beating up the chavs who my wifes friend has CCTV of nicking her new Fiat 500 last week.

Having seen the footage, I reckon after a day or two I could find and ID them.

Hows about a bit of justice without discussion there?

Its silly people like you who give farmers the largely undeserved "Get orf moy laand" reputation a lot of city folk buy in to.

I wrote this on the assumption you weren't writing tongue in cheek so to speak. If not, I really think someone should look at your suitability to hold a firarms license,



Edited by wildcat45 on Saturday 6th October 05:12

1point7bar

1,091 posts

34 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
From experience, the Police refer you to the RSPCA.

The RSPCA are very quick to respond, but they are very limited in their scope.

Large dogs can be difficult to handle if there is more than one.


Jasandjules

51,381 posts

115 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
I suppose it part it depends on if there is any other way of stopping the dogs.

A friend's dog was missing for a while, and was seen every few days by a farmer walking amongst his sheep. She never did anything to scare the sheep, and the farmer left her alone.

So there are good ones out there (in fact our friends are farmers and dog lovers, I will ask them what they would do in this situation as a matter of curiosity).

But I feel sorry for the dog owners (and the farmer actually, he might not have wanted to shoot the dogs and I also hope he doesn't lose too much money as a result of this).


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