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Pioneer

Original Poster:

1,185 posts

85 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
The initial message was deleted from this topic on 23 August 2013 at 20:38

Paddy_N_Murphy

16,206 posts

70 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
A very valid point I think.

Simpo Two

59,990 posts

151 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Me too, and I suspect that and computers in general have caused a drop in productivity too. Poking a computer is seen as far more important and cleverer than doing actual work.

TheD

2,748 posts

85 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
I would have to agree as well. I like to use my local Fishing shop for example as he is a great fisherman, has loads of great stories, but the price of his (ahem) tackle is much more expensive than online. This example can be applied to just about any shop and business in the area. In my game people don't phone for advice as much as they tend to just Google it.

Hoofy

56,157 posts

168 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
An interesting point; it will have affected many businesses but so did the loom.

Thing is, the Internet has created many more businesses and allowed smaller businesses to expand much more than they could do so. I suppose the question is whether the Internet's increases in profit for some businesses outweighs the losses for others. So perhaps there might be a recession in spite of the Internet.

Edited by Hoofy on Saturday 13th October 10:59

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djdubs

98 posts

46 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
No, I think your bang on. I've been saying this for years to/with my customers. Everyone knows everything nowadays as theres so much information in your pocket so middle men and some trades are being cut out now. Plus, its very easy to have a all singing dancing 'shop front' on the internet without the need to rent a big unit and all the other costs that are involved. A lot of my customers are being forced to cut corners left right and centre in order to remain competitve with less scrupulus traders.

sunbeam alpine

2,675 posts

74 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
The Internet has certainly played a part in pushing down prices, and may well end up changing some markets completely. The flip side of the coin is that the Internet may lead to increased exposure to new customers, leading to greater sales volume, albeit at lower margins. So long as the business continues to be profitable, it should not add to/increase the recession.

I think that cheaper and more reliable goods transport is a greater cause of problems, certainly in my industry. It makes it much easier to buy cheaper products from further away.

Neither of these factors however is the root cause of recession. If prices are cheaper, consumption will rise to compensate (yes, I know some products have a greater elasticity than others), but people will find a way to spend their money.

What bugs me is that I have friends who go to shops to look at/compare stuff, then they order it at a lower price on the internet. Don't they realise that there won't be anywhere to go look at products if they carry on like that? Maybe I just have some stupid friends!

Unfortunately the root cause of the recession is that growth over the last 20 years was funded by cheap uncontrolled lending, which could not continue endlessly. The challenge now is how to create real growth while cutting out the unnecessary dross.

budgie smuggler

1,385 posts

45 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Simpo Two said:
Me too, and I suspect that and computers in general have caused a drop in productivity too. Poking a computer is seen as far more important and cleverer than doing actual work.
Define 'actual work'

surveyor

7,638 posts

70 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
The Internet is merely a change in the way of business.

To survive one must evolve. If the high street shop develops a web presence, and for instance a forum for questions rather than people calling it's likely they are heading in the right direction.

If they are going to try and compete in a diminishing market, it's obvious the way it will go.

Going to try and think that through my own business model now!

miniman

17,097 posts

148 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
surveyor said:
The Internet is merely a change in the way of business.

To survive one must evolve. If the high street shop develops a web presence, and for instance a forum for questions rather than people calling it's likely they are heading in the right direction.

If they are going to try and compete in a diminishing market, it's obvious the way it will go.

Going to try and think that through my own business model now!
Precisely. The Internet is not to blame per-se, more the inability of some businesses and, crucially, government, to adapt to different ways of doing things.

I stand by my theory that in the next decade we will see root and branch change in the "high street" including the removal of a lot of buildings.

surveyor

7,638 posts

70 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Pioneer said:
surveyor said:
The Internet is merely a change in the way of business.

To survive one must evolve. If the high street shop develops a web presence, and for instance a forum for questions rather than people calling it's likely they are heading in the right direction.

If they are going to try and compete in a diminishing market, it's obvious the way it will go.

Going to try and think that through my own business model now!
Bit to simplistic I reckon, in trying to compete/change many shops actually take on more overheads and make their margins even lower. It's not as simple as saying they just have to change.
But the internet in general means fewer overheads to reach a wider audience. You clearly have to have your wits about you as in any form of business

Marf

22,907 posts

127 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
No. A lack of confidence caused by an inability to accurately assess risk in a post-securitisation credit market caused the recession.

miniman

17,097 posts

148 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Pioneer said:
The only winners will be cottage industry (which doesn't do much for the whole country) or massive multi nationals not even based in the uk.
And so perhaps this is the point where as a nation we realise the true outcome of allowing all of our manufacturing industries to either decline into nothing or to be sold to non-UK ownership.

It would be nice to see a few cottage industries grow into major businesses by making excellent products that are of interest to both UK and overseas buyers. It will require the government to put in place a support mechanism to allow that to happen and sadly I just don't see any government doing so given that they seem singularly incapable of addressing even the basic issues behind the current recession.

surveyor

7,638 posts

70 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Pioneer said:
surveyor said:
But the internet in general means fewer overheads to reach a wider audience. You clearly have to have your wits about you as in any form of business
Yes of course you do. But it gets to a point where most businesses are being forced to 'tread water' rather than making larger profits they can reinvest in the business and grow.

Take the printing industry now for example. A while ago each town had several successful printers who employed lots of people and contributed to the local economy. Then the Internet came along and it was a double whammy in that the amount of printed material declined but also clients can contact virtually hundreds of printers to get the best price. Chances are the work leaves the town to go to a printer somewhere else who is making sod all on the job but has had o cut and cut prices to keep work coming in.....
Or see the change in the market coming, and train up some of the ex printers to be to work in new media. As one door closes another opens. It's obviously far easier to see in hindsight, and without that it's very easy to get caught out running faster and faster to stay in the same place.

Simpo Two

59,990 posts

151 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
budgie smuggler said:
Define 'actual work'
Making things, looking after things, looking after people and doubtless many more.

It seems that rather than get a broom and sweep the road, people prefer to buy road sweeping management software and spend days playing with it, while the road goes unswept.

Or rather than concentrate on making something properly, people prefer to talk bks about how to make something properly, while the product itself is forgotten, and when it does emerge, is twice the price.

In short, why do do the actual task when you can play on a computer thinking about doing it?

Another problem is that there are too many people and too few jobs.

djdubs

98 posts

46 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
sunbeam alpine said:
The Internet has certainly played a part in pushing down prices, and may well end up changing some markets completely. The flip side of the coin is that the Internet may lead to increased exposure to new customers, leading to greater sales volume, albeit at lower margins. So long as the business continues to be profitable, it should not add to/increase the recession.

I think that cheaper and more reliable goods transport is a greater cause of problems, certainly in my industry. It makes it much easier to buy cheaper products from further away.

Neither of these factors however is the root cause of recession. If prices are cheaper, consumption will rise to compensate (yes, I know some products have a greater elasticity than others), but people will find a way to spend their money.

What bugs me is that I have friends who go to shops to look at/compare stuff, then they order it at a lower price on the internet. Don't they realise that there won't be anywhere to go look at products if they carry on like that? Maybe I just have some stupid friends!

Unfortunately the root cause of the recession is that growth over the last 20 years was funded by cheap uncontrolled lending, which could not continue endlessly. The challenge now is how to create real growth while cutting out the unnecessary dross.
In years to come you will drive down a road/high street and all you will see will be adverts and walls in my opinion. There will be very few shops only large holding units with eccomerce sites attached. I have customers with large premises who say people have been window shopping so to speak for the last few years but not purchasing. They simply cannot survive under these circumstances and its sad but we are all to blame as everyone is chasing price nowadays and not service.. in the main.

miniman

17,097 posts

148 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
djdubs said:
In years to come you will drive down a road/high street and all you will see will be adverts and walls in my opinion. There will be very few shops only large holding units with eccomerce sites attached. I have customers with large premises who say people have been window shopping so to speak for the last few years but not purchasing. They simply cannot survive under these circumstances and its sad but we are all to blame as everyone is chasing price nowadays and not service.. in the main.
Agreed. The core purpose of the high street as somewhere one goes to shop is obsolete now. The only outlets really thriving are leisure related - coffee shops, for example. Shopping is carried out either online or in high end malls where parking is free or very cheap and the overall ambience is good. Thanks to local authorities seeing parking as the only way to refill their coffers and town planning as simply deciding whether to have one or two Starbucks per square mile, we end up with desolate, run down, empty wastelands.

For my money, the war of the coffee shops will be won by whoever does a deal with Amazon to combine smart cafe with collection point.

rog007

3,479 posts

110 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Pioneer said:
I agree with what you say will be the outcome, but again I think it is too simplistic to say businesses that don't change will fail. The businesses that do change are also failing due to the extremely competitive nature of the net. The only winners will be cottage industry (which doesn't do much for the whole country) or massive multi nationals not even based in the uk.
The 'only winners' are those that are producing a product or providing a service at a quality level and price point that the customer is willing to accept and pay for. Do this and you too can be a winner! Simples! wink

Engineer1

10,429 posts

95 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
Marf said:
No. A lack of confidence caused by an inability to accurately assess risk in a post-securitisation credit market caused the recession.
I think the Internet hasn't helped in that rumours can spread fast, stories can affect confidence, I suspect some businesses have gone down in a feeding frenzy that may not have happened if only a few people had heard the news.

Wacky Racer

22,316 posts

133 months

[news] 
Saturday 13th October 2012 quote quote all
One thing is for sure:-

It's no use businesses moaning about the internet.

Like the atom bomb it isn't going to go away.

They have to learn to live with it or die a slow lingering death.




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