"Modern Classics" 40 minute race series
Discussion
Richair said:
We drove to our first event earlier this year in my pals Civic EP3 tintop car and I'm building a road legal 951 which I fully intend to drive to events. However admittedly this is risky business so most trailer their cars (my mate now has trailer for his Civic...).
Personally I like the idea of driving a car to a race, but if a car is built to compete at the front it will be pretty horrible to drive on the road!
Nice - 951 shoul dbe good.Personally I like the idea of driving a car to a race, but if a car is built to compete at the front it will be pretty horrible to drive on the road!
Agree, it will be a compromise.
Biggest issue is how to get home if it breaks!!
Hammond1073 said:
How about this for the CSCC Modern Classics.
316 bhp Golf.
£7000 Ready to race
andy97 said:
Am I right in thinking that's a MK 3 Golf? Did they come with a turbo engine and 6 speed box as original? I'm not sure that they did. But if they didn't, then I'm afraid it's not eligible imho. If they did, then it may be eligible.
Failing that it can always run in the New Millenium seriesHammond1073 said:
andy97 said:
Am I right in thinking that's a MK 3 Golf? Did they come with a turbo engine and 6 speed box as original? I'm not sure that they did. But if they didn't, then I'm afraid it's not eligible imho. If they did, then it may be eligible.
Failing that it can always run in the New Millenium seriesandy97 said:
I don't think engine transplants are allowed in any CSCC series except the Special Saloons and Modsports series.
This. Both 'New Millennium' and 'Modern Classics' regs are worded..."Original engine type to be retained"
"Original engine and gearbox type to be retained"
...repectively
Tanuki said:
andy97 said:
I don't think engine transplants are allowed in any CSCC series except the Special Saloons and Modsports series.
This. Both 'New Millennium' and 'Modern Classics' regs are worded..."Original engine type to be retained"
"Original engine and gearbox type to be retained"
...repectively
Similarly, the same view could be used on a later model engine which is still a flat-four Subaru engine using a turbocharger and the Class C regulations now allow up to 2.5 litres.
It's a tricky one. One could end up knee deep in Engine/Gearbox/Model codes for each car.
We've certainly raided the "parts bin" to cherry pick a 5 speed gearbox/diff of the correct era. Have I knobbled us by being too pedantic? ;-)
PistonSquizz said:
Tanuki said:
andy97 said:
I don't think engine transplants are allowed in any CSCC series except the Special Saloons and Modsports series.
This. Both 'New Millennium' and 'Modern Classics' regs are worded..."Original engine type to be retained"
"Original engine and gearbox type to be retained"
...repectively
Similarly, the same view could be used on a later model engine which is still a flat-four Subaru engine using a turbocharger and the Class C regulations now allow up to 2.5 litres.
It's a tricky one. One could end up knee deep in Engine/Gearbox/Model codes for each car.
We've certainly raided the "parts bin" to cherry pick a 5 speed gearbox/diff of the correct era. Have I knobbled us by being too pedantic? ;-)
In my view, If your car had a 5 speed box originally, and no 6 speed box in the range for that body shell, then it has to stay as a 5 speed. Yes, you can fit a competition gear kit or dog box or different final drive but it must use the same casing as the production 'box.
As for the engine, again in my view it has to have the same block and same head as the production model.
CSCC has only ever allowed one car in that did not have an engine original to type in its main stream series, as far as i know, and that was the Vectra which had the 3.2 V6 from the later model. I was the co-ordinator at the time, and there was supposed to be big interest from the Vectra Challenge guys at the time to run as their own class. I pushed to allow them in on the basis that they were (in the spirit of the regs". I was wrong, and as we know, only Neville Anderson turned up to race his Vectra and "Class V" never happened. I doubt the club will allow something similar again.
andy97 said:
Yes, you can fit a competition gear kit or dog box or different final drive but it must use the same casing as the production 'box.
Cheers Andy. I think we're pretty much at the limit of the 5 speed box and the power it can handle. Therefore if we have engine power increased, we'll need to have (expensive) new internals for the existing gearbox. Unfortunately, the casing can flex which is one of the things addressed by the later 6 speed, but I'm sure there are options.Hi All,
I am thinking of entering the last race of the year at Brands Hatch, 40 minute races do appeal.
I have been racing my MX5 with the 750MC 5 Club this year so it is pretty standard performance wise. Would I have anyone to race with in the 1.6 and under category? Are there any that enter lower powered cars?
Look forward to hearing back .
I am thinking of entering the last race of the year at Brands Hatch, 40 minute races do appeal.
I have been racing my MX5 with the 750MC 5 Club this year so it is pretty standard performance wise. Would I have anyone to race with in the 1.6 and under category? Are there any that enter lower powered cars?
Look forward to hearing back .
Have a look at lap times here.
http://www.tsl-timing.com/Results/cscc/
I race in the 750 Clio 182 so run a standard car also.
All CSCC cars look (and go) like they have had 10's of thousends spent and consiquently I am well down the field.
The fastest lap in the 750mc Clio 182 at brands would qualify towards the back of the grid for the Tin Tops.
Saying that I am entering New Milenium and Tin Tops for Brands as there are still other slow cars to race against.
I would go in to it not expecting to win your class.
http://www.tsl-timing.com/Results/cscc/
I race in the 750 Clio 182 so run a standard car also.
All CSCC cars look (and go) like they have had 10's of thousends spent and consiquently I am well down the field.
The fastest lap in the 750mc Clio 182 at brands would qualify towards the back of the grid for the Tin Tops.
Saying that I am entering New Milenium and Tin Tops for Brands as there are still other slow cars to race against.
I would go in to it not expecting to win your class.
bobbyandrews said:
Hi All,
I am thinking of entering the last race of the year at Brands Hatch, 40 minute races do appeal.
I have been racing my MX5 with the 750MC 5 Club this year so it is pretty standard performance wise. Would I have anyone to race with in the 1.6 and under category? Are there any that enter lower powered cars?
Look forward to hearing back .
Hi Bobby,I am thinking of entering the last race of the year at Brands Hatch, 40 minute races do appeal.
I have been racing my MX5 with the 750MC 5 Club this year so it is pretty standard performance wise. Would I have anyone to race with in the 1.6 and under category? Are there any that enter lower powered cars?
Look forward to hearing back .
Would be great to see you out with us at Brands, my colleague has replied to you on our FB page too. As Thurbs has said there as some well developed and experienced drivers with us in various CSCC series including Tin Tops. There is a large range of budgets and lap times through the field and a MK1 MX5 at Brands Indy should be competitive in class in either Future Classics or Modern Classics and as Andy has said you will have others to enjoy racing against.
Best regards, David
andy97 said:
CSCC has only ever allowed one car in that did not have an engine original to type in its main stream series, as far as i know, and that was the Vectra which had the 3.2 V6 from the later model. I was the co-ordinator at the time, and there was supposed to be big interest from the Vectra Challenge guys at the time to run as their own class. I pushed to allow them in on the basis that they were (in the spirit of the regs". I was wrong, and as we know, only Neville Anderson turned up to race his Vectra and "Class V" never happened. I doubt the club will allow something similar again.
Presumably BMW made the secret E36 M3 S54 model that none bar TH knows about since that is allowed to race in the Series? Or am I missing something? I am also hearing that Chilton and I may be asked to move over to your series with the 928s since both of us run GTS bodywork/engines and apparently that is against the spirit since the GTS only came in 1992. Or is it because Mark keeps winning in the Future Classics?
Edited by Cheburator mk2 on Saturday 17th October 08:51
As you know, I am no longer the MC co-ordinator, but I have heard murmerings about BMWs with incorrect engines. They should not be allowed, indeed they are not allowed, but someone needs to make a complaint and get it investigated; its no good making allegations on here - make them known to the CSCC Office.
As for Mark's 928, I made it clear several years ago that the 928 GTS should only race in MC because that model is a post 1990 car, in my view, and should not be eligible for FC. Why it is still in FC, I have no idea.
As for Mark's 928, I made it clear several years ago that the 928 GTS should only race in MC because that model is a post 1990 car, in my view, and should not be eligible for FC. Why it is still in FC, I have no idea.
Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 13th October 13:51
The CSCC MC regs state that the original engine and gearbox type must be retained, but internals are free.
By type, I take that to mean that if the car comes with a 2.5 V6, then you can use any old 2.5 V6. Am I mistaken? With regards to the S54 vs S50, the S54 makes around 10-15 bhp more and a wider torque curve, but it weighs a bit more. I don't see a problem with allowing an S54 in an E36, but having free reign to play with internals seems a bit daft - you can get 400+ bhp from an S50B32 if you've deep enough pockets.
Thought I should add that I'm not Tom Houlbrook, although he is on PH. I don't know Tom, but I do know that he's had the car a very long time, and that the performance of the car is most definitely not simply down to the engine.
By type, I take that to mean that if the car comes with a 2.5 V6, then you can use any old 2.5 V6. Am I mistaken? With regards to the S54 vs S50, the S54 makes around 10-15 bhp more and a wider torque curve, but it weighs a bit more. I don't see a problem with allowing an S54 in an E36, but having free reign to play with internals seems a bit daft - you can get 400+ bhp from an S50B32 if you've deep enough pockets.
Thought I should add that I'm not Tom Houlbrook, although he is on PH. I don't know Tom, but I do know that he's had the car a very long time, and that the performance of the car is most definitely not simply down to the engine.
Edited by e36er on Tuesday 13th October 14:12
e36er said:
The CSCC MC regs state that the original engine and gearbox type must be retained, but internals are free.
By type, I take that to mean that if the car comes with a 2.5 V6, then you can use any old 2.5 V6. Am I mistaken? With regards to the S54 vs S50, the S54 makes around 10-15 bhp more and a wider torque curve, but it weighs a bit more. I don't see a problem with allowing an S54 in an E36, but having free reign to play with internals seems a bit daft - you can get 400+ bhp from an S50B32 if you've deep enough pockets.
Thought I should add that I'm not Tom Houlbrook, although he is on PH. I don't know Tom, but I do know that he's had the car a very long time, and that the performance of the car is most definitely not simply down to the engine.
I will caveat my reply by emphasising that I am not to co-ordinator of MC anymore. I did not race in MC this year but have done previously and may do again next year.By type, I take that to mean that if the car comes with a 2.5 V6, then you can use any old 2.5 V6. Am I mistaken? With regards to the S54 vs S50, the S54 makes around 10-15 bhp more and a wider torque curve, but it weighs a bit more. I don't see a problem with allowing an S54 in an E36, but having free reign to play with internals seems a bit daft - you can get 400+ bhp from an S50B32 if you've deep enough pockets.
Thought I should add that I'm not Tom Houlbrook, although he is on PH. I don't know Tom, but I do know that he's had the car a very long time, and that the performance of the car is most definitely not simply down to the engine.
Edited by e36er on Tuesday 13th October 14:12
IMHO A car cannot race with any old 2.5V6, it has to be the 2.5V6 from that model in the range
If a bodyshell never came with an S54 engine option, it cant race with one now.
CSCC have always had a view that there is no point in having rules that cant be policed, so no point in specifying internals when there is no intention to strip down; BUT, it is reasonable to expect competitors to comply with the (few) simple rules it does have and this means that the car has to have the engine type from the car in the range it is intended to represent.
As I said, the club (on my recommendation) made an exception for the 3.2V6 Vectra on the basis that we thought we were going to get a stand alone class of them racing with us. We did not and I was wrong.
e36er said:
The CSCC MC regs state that the original engine and gearbox type must be retained, but internals are free.
By type, I take that to mean that if the car comes with a 2.5 V6, then you can use any old 2.5 V6. Am I mistaken? With regards to the S54 vs S50, the S54 makes around 10-15 bhp more and a wider torque curve, but it weighs a bit more. I don't see a problem with allowing an S54 in an E36, but having free reign to play with internals seems a bit daft - you can get 400+ bhp from an S50B32 if you've deep enough pockets.
Thought I should add that I'm not Tom Houlbrook, although he is on PH. I don't know Tom, but I do know that he's had the car a very long time, and that the performance of the car is most definitely not simply down to the engine.
A played with S54 will always make a lot more than a played with S50. Fact. That way you get the best of both worlds - a more powerful and tractable engine in a lighter chassis. By type, I take that to mean that if the car comes with a 2.5 V6, then you can use any old 2.5 V6. Am I mistaken? With regards to the S54 vs S50, the S54 makes around 10-15 bhp more and a wider torque curve, but it weighs a bit more. I don't see a problem with allowing an S54 in an E36, but having free reign to play with internals seems a bit daft - you can get 400+ bhp from an S50B32 if you've deep enough pockets.
Thought I should add that I'm not Tom Houlbrook, although he is on PH. I don't know Tom, but I do know that he's had the car a very long time, and that the performance of the car is most definitely not simply down to the engine.
Edited by e36er on Tuesday 13th October 14:12
As to the car being fast not just because of the engine - of course. It benefits from good suspension, good setup and a good driver. But the rules are rules. What's there stopping me from building a 500+ 16v 944 Turbo - the head is sitting at home and I have done it before...
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