"Modern Classics" 40 minute race series

"Modern Classics" 40 minute race series

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andy97

Original Poster:

4,691 posts

221 months

Saturday 13th October 2012
quotequote all
The CSCC will run a race series in 2013 called "Modern Classics".
"Modern Classics" is a development of the German car only series "Deutsche Marque" which this series will replace.

"Modern Classics" will be for all makes of production saloon & hatchback (above 2 litres) and all production GT and sportscars in production up to 1 Jan 2000 of any engine capacity.

In addition to the German Marques previously raced in “Deutsche Marque”, the Series will welcome cars such as the Lotus Elise, Mazda MX5, Fiat Coupe, Subaru Impreza, Alfa Romeo V6, Ginetta G20, Vauxhall Vectra V6 and TVR to name but a few.

Some slightly later cars may be allowed at the discretion of the committee if deemed to be in the spirit of the series, such as the later Porsche Boxsters, forced induction BMW Minis and Fiat 500 Abarths.

The eligibility rules will follow normal CSCC practice and be simple to build to, and simple to police, to encourage wide participation.

Cars must:
Run their original production silhouette.
Run their original type of engine and gearbox.
Run their original type of induction.
Run on MSA List 1a or 1b tyres.

Cars may only run standard types of spoiler or splitter originally fitted to the production model. Limited motorsport edition spoilers, splitters and wheelarch extensions will not be allowed. There are no restrictions on engine internals, brakes, wheels, suspension etc as long as the above criteria are met, though cars must comply with current MSA safety regulations.

Races will run to the usual CSCC format one or two drivers, 40 minute pitstop races at all our 2013 meetings. There will also be the opportunity to race at Spa.

Carnage

886 posts

231 months

Saturday 13th October 2012
quotequote all
Hi Andy

Sounds good, and I'm tempted to bring out my 968, but only concern is the thought of swarms of turbo nutter saloons turning up...

djroadboy

1,173 posts

235 months

Saturday 13th October 2012
quotequote all
Sounds great but as has been mentioned already I can see it being spoilt by people running Imprezas and Evos boosted to frig.

A power-to-weight ratio class structure would probably help if the numbers were high enough.

Dan

Carnage

886 posts

231 months

Saturday 13th October 2012
quotequote all
djroadboy said:
Sounds great but as has been mentioned already I can see it being spoilt by people running Imprezas and Evos boosted to frig.

A power-to-weight ratio class structure would probably help if the numbers were high enough.

Dan
I like the idea, bit like the old 750 MC Roadsports, but thinking about it a bit more - 3.0 litre, 250 bhp, 1250 kg Porsche 968 seems very likely to be up against 2.0 litre, 500 bhp, 1250 kg Imprezas if allowing the usual 1.7 equivalency factor. Not convinced.

andy97

Original Poster:

4,691 posts

221 months

Sunday 14th October 2012
quotequote all
Carnage said:
I like the idea, bit like the old 750 MC Roadsports, but thinking about it a bit more - 3.0 litre, 250 bhp, 1250 kg Porsche 968 seems very likely to be up against 2.0 litre, 500 bhp, 1250 kg Imprezas if allowing the usual 1.7 equivalency factor. Not convinced.
The usual 1.7x equivelancy factor will apply for forced indiction cars but this means that 2 litre turbos will be considered equivelant to 3.4 litre. The class split has not been finalised yet but is likely to be at 3 litre or 3.2 litre meaning that a 968 will be in a different class (literally!).

The CSCC will apply time penalties to race winners, as it does in all its other series, to help try to even things out a bit over time.

Power to weight ratio splits are just not practical at this level, and at this cost, of club racing. Its also very easy to defeat (I could relate the true story of why 944 Turbos got banned from the Porsche Club series a few years ago but thats for a different thread!). CSCC will not go down this route, I'm afraid, it would mean having a mobile rolling road at each round and thats a cost that is just not justifiable.

Who is to say that 500 Bhp Imprezzas etc are going to be able to last 40 minutes!

At this level, the variability in performance between two drivers in the same car, and the length of time pit stops can take also adds to the unpredictability of the racing and, allied to the succes time penalties, no outcome is certain.

Give it a chance and give it a go!

djroadboy

1,173 posts

235 months

Sunday 14th October 2012
quotequote all
Sounds good Andy. Any ideas on the calendar for next year yet and what's the entries fees for this series?

Cheers

Dan

spyderman8

1,748 posts

155 months

Sunday 14th October 2012
quotequote all
I'll be keeping an eye on this too.

andy97

Original Poster:

4,691 posts

221 months

Sunday 14th October 2012
quotequote all
djroadboy said:
Sounds good Andy. Any ideas on the calendar for next year yet and what's the entries fees for this series?

Cheers

Dan
Calendar won't be finalised for a while I'm afraid, probably published in early December, after our AGM. Entry fees vary depending on the circuit, and I'm not sure what they will be for next year but this year they varied between about £310 at Anglesey to £345 at the MSVR circuits, I think (can't remeber exactly but it was in that ball park), for 20-30 min practice (depending on timetable) and a 40 min race. Club membership is about £38 and registration fee for the car is about £98 (all figures approx becaue I don't have them to hand!)

Hope thats attractive?

Andy

Edited by andy97 on Sunday 14th October 20:39


Edited by andy97 on Sunday 14th October 20:40

vjay48

191 posts

158 months

Sunday 14th October 2012
quotequote all
At this stage of the proceedings various key board warriors come out of the woodwork with the comment :- the last we need is another series/championship,watch this space? Perhaps my comment will frighten them off,and a posistive debate will happen?

majordad

3,600 posts

196 months

Sunday 14th October 2012
quotequote all
I did the some of the Deutche Marque Series rounds this year and found them good fun, well organised and good value for the 40 mins you get. I'd have done them all but family commitments prevented it. Hope to do more next year. Like some previous posters I too would have worries about competing against over boosted Subarus/Evos but I'm sure the regs will cover this.

NJH

3,021 posts

208 months

Sunday 14th October 2012
quotequote all
There have been cars running in Future Classics in the past with 500 to 600 Bhp, likewise some of the BMWs in Deutsche Marques ran will into the mid 350s and more. I don't think boosted evos and imprezzas will make much if any difference to things.

Good luck with this series Andy, I think the net is pretty wide and you will pick up decent entries.

wildman0609

885 posts

175 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
NJH said:
There have been cars running in Future Classics in the past with 500 to 600 Bhp, likewise some of the BMWs in Deutsche Marques ran will into the mid 350s and more. I don't think boosted evos and imprezzas will make much if any difference to things.

Good luck with this series Andy, I think the net is pretty wide and you will pick up decent entries.
i don't think the comment was that they would be 500hp, but that they would be evo's and imprerza's. I would happily share a grid with 500hp 911’s or Astons or ferrari’s but I wouldn’t want to share a grid with evo’s and impreza’s. I would much rather a quality grid not a quantity grid, as CSCC has now become.

targa6226

45 posts

165 months

Monday 15th October 2012
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Andy, if you make the class split at 3.2L it would then include 1980's 911 Carrera's like mine.

Card

18 posts

147 months

Monday 15th October 2012
quotequote all
Like the idea.

I was looking to do some Deutche Marque.

I have a BMW M3 E46 but not sure if the age is a problem, would that be able to run in this new format?

Carnage

886 posts

231 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
quotequote all
andy97 said:
The usual 1.7x equivelancy factor will apply for forced indiction cars but this means that 2 litre turbos will be considered equivelant to 3.4 litre. The class split has not been finalised yet but is likely to be at 3 litre or 3.2 litre meaning that a 968 will be in a different class (literally!).

The CSCC will apply time penalties to race winners, as it does in all its other series, to help try to even things out a bit over time.

Power to weight ratio splits are just not practical at this level, and at this cost, of club racing. Its also very easy to defeat (I could relate the true story of why 944 Turbos got banned from the Porsche Club series a few years ago but thats for a different thread!). CSCC will not go down this route, I'm afraid, it would mean having a mobile rolling road at each round and thats a cost that is just not justifiable.

Who is to say that 500 Bhp Imprezzas etc are going to be able to last 40 minutes!

At this level, the variability in performance between two drivers in the same car, and the length of time pit stops can take also adds to the unpredictability of the racing and, allied to the succes time penalties, no outcome is certain.

Give it a chance and give it a go!
I've raced with CSCC before - in fact you kindly picked up my trophy for me - and they are a good bunch of people. I think I will have a go, either with the 968 or was talking to a mate this morning and we'll get his Griffith 500 out of the shed. In fact the Crossle 9S was built in the nineties and is over 2 litres...

However, it will be a bit suck it and see as I would be concerned that the post 1999 cut-off will blur and we will be racing E46 M3's and drift cars. Not for me.

Carnage

886 posts

231 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
quotequote all
houlbt said:
Apart from the fact they would both be ineligible.

andy97

Original Poster:

4,691 posts

221 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
quotequote all
Carnage said:
I've raced with CSCC before - in fact you kindly picked up my trophy for me - and they are a good bunch of people. I think I will have a go, either with the 968 or was talking to a mate this morning and we'll get his Griffith 500 out of the shed. In fact the Crossle 9S was built in the nineties and is over 2 litres...

However, it will be a bit suck it and see as I would be concerned that the post 1999 cut-off will blur and we will be racing E46 M3's and drift cars. Not for me.
I remember picking up the trophy for you - only one I've ever picked up!

The Crossle 9S is a fantastic car but not a production sports car, so not eligible for this series I'm afraid.

The eligibility is for pre 1 Jan year 2000 cars, however Deutsche Marque cars that competed in that series may have grandfather rights, subject to Committee approval, hence Porsche Boxster and BMW Minis being allowed.

The requirement for standard size and shape body shells and no non main stream production aero will be enforced.

There will be the usual CSCC time based success penalties for outright winners.

I hope that a Subaru or a Mitsubishi do take part, as they are definitely modern classics, but the heavier 4 wheel drive system and the need for reliability, along with the time penalties, will probably mean that they won't dominate.

Interestingly, CSCC allow forced induction cars in Future Classics and its never been an issue, even though they can have modern engine management systems to help protect them and give great power. 4WD cars such as the Skyline R32 are allowed in Future Classics, too, but we have never had one take part so who is to say the Subarus and Mitsubishi will join in with MC?

The club really hope that the Deutsche Marque folks who have raced with us for the last 2 years will stick with the new series to form the core of a great new series, augmented by a number of other cars originating from other countries and who may not be eligible for the CSCC's existing series to get really good grid sizes.

I am to be the co-ordinator, and I will do my best, but for sure, it's impossible to please everyone, it's impossible to have true equivalence between cars (and there is no pretence otherwise), there will be a class based system so that people can still have class awards to fight for (pick a 3 litre car you won't be in the same class a 2 litre turbo!) and mistakes may be made but the emphasis will be on getting as many people out racing regularly, and enjoyably, as possible with good driving standards. I am considering racing a Ginetta G20 in the series myself and whilst I am no great driver I do hope that over a 40 min race, there may be some good battles between lighter, more nimble cars and bigger more powerful ones!



Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 16th October 13:02

Carnage

886 posts

231 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
quotequote all
andy97 said:
I remember picking up the trophy for you - only one I've ever picked up!

The Crossle 9S is a fantastic car but not a production sports car, so not eligible for this series I'm afraid.

The eligibility is for pre 1 Jan year 2000 cars, however Deutsche Marque cars that competed in that series may have grandfather rights, subject to Committee approval, hence Porsche Boxster and BMW Minis being allowed.

The requirement for standard size and shape body shells and no non main stream production aero will be enforced.

There will be the usual CSCC time based success penalties for outright winners.

I hope that a Subaru or a Mitsubishi do take part, as they are definitely modern classics, but the heavier 4 wheel drive system and the need for reliability, along with the time penalties, will probably mean that they won't dominate.

Interestingly, CSCC allow forced induction cars in Future Classics and its never been an issue, even though they can have modern engine management systems to help protect them and give great power. 4WD cars such as the Skyline R32 are allowed in Future Classics, too, but we have never had one take part so who is to say the Subarus and Mitsubishi will join in with MC?

The club really hope that the Deutsche Marque folks who have raced with us for the last 2 years will stick with the new series to form the core of a great new series, augmented by a number of other cars originating from other countries and who may not be eligible for the CSCC's existing series to get really good grid sizes.

I am to be the co-ordinator, and I will do my best, but for sure, it's impossible to please everyone, it's impossible to have true equivalence between cars (and there is no pretence otherwise), there will be a class based system so that people can still have class awards to fight for (pick a 3 litre car you won't be in the same class a 2 litre turbo!) and mistakes may be made but the emphasis will be on getting as many people out racing regularly, and enjoyably, as possible with good driving standards. I am considering racing a Ginetta G20 in the series myself and whilst I am no great driver I do hope that over a 40 min race, there may be some good battles between lighter, more nimble cars and bigger more powerful ones!

Edited by andy97 on Tuesday 16th October 13:02
Well I spoke to Dom and the Griffith is being dusted off as we speak. Should be a giggle.

Edited to add - hmmm, seen the thread below? Someone's watching you...



Edited by Carnage on Tuesday 16th October 13:38


Edited by Carnage on Tuesday 16th October 13:48

andy97

Original Poster:

4,691 posts

221 months

Tuesday 16th October 2012
quotequote all
Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery etc.