Still a £$&£$ on the log book
Discussion
AlexRS2782 said:
E36 BMW 316 Compact with full M3 conversion:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-316-compact-M3-Runni...
Fantastic in theory but "The car is registered as a 1600cc so cheap tax and insurance but it goes like a rocket ship"
Once again the fundamental question is does the build have decent history and provenance? I doubt that so I would avoid the car. So many of these are passed around a group of locals who want cars which cannot be used lawfully in the modified form OTR. I would avoid and I doubt it will actually sell. Days for these unregistered cars (correctly in the current form) being over IMO. Too much hassle and quite possibly economically unaffordable.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-316-compact-M3-Runni...
Fantastic in theory but "The car is registered as a 1600cc so cheap tax and insurance but it goes like a rocket ship"
Liquid Knight said:
Well spotted. As you will know best left alone. Cannot be used legally OTR insurance will be very difficulty, best left to scrappage. This wil probably bounce along on the net on the usual sites then disappear. Pity because genuine VW Golfs are excellent cars with considerable longevity. Steffan said:
Well spotted. As you will know best left alone. Cannot be used legally OTR insurance will be very difficulty, best left to scrappage. This wil probably bounce along on the net on the usual sites then disappear. Pity because genuine VW Golfs are excellent cars with considerable longevity.
Or register engine swap with DVLA, and job done. Insurance needn't be "very difficulty", plenty of specialists out there to insure engine swaps.amstrange1 said:
Steffan said:
Well spotted. As you will know best left alone. Cannot be used legally OTR insurance will be very difficulty, best left to scrappage. This wil probably bounce along on the net on the usual sites then disappear. Pity because genuine VW Golfs are excellent cars with considerable longevity.
Or register engine swap with DVLA, and job done. Insurance needn't be "very difficulty", plenty of specialists out there to insure engine swaps.Steffan said:
My experience of the registration process post IVA is that it is by no means easy. Unless the build has genuine history and the vehicle has genuine provenance and the replacement mechanical components are correctly numbered and capable of being substantiated as genuine. Most of tha cars offered on the Internet fail those requirements. If you have different personal experience in registering cars which have unrecorded major mechanical modifications I would be most interested to hear of these. My experience building about five kit cars/modified cars a year is that is is most cetainly not an easy process and is getting harder steadily.
In what way? If the DVLA want to make people jump through hoops its little wonder folk don't bother IMO...Steffan said:
My experience of the registration process post IVA is that it is by no means easy. Unless the build has genuine history and the vehicle has genuine provenance and the replacement mechanical components are correctly numbered and capable of being substantiated as genuine. Most of tha cars offered on the Internet fail those requirements. If you have different personal experience in registering cars which have unrecorded major mechanical modifications I would be most interested to hear of these. My experience building about five kit cars/modified cars a year is that is is most cetainly not an easy process and is getting harder steadily.
An engine swap is still pretty simple to notify as long as you have the new engine number, or can have a good stab at working it out. Granted they might come back at you asking for "evidence", but being as they're usually satisfied with a letter on headed paper from a "garage" it's not exactly challenging to obtain. I only know of one mate that got chased for more evidence for a kit car engine swap, and on providing it (a letter from a third party rather than himself) they actioned the change.You mention IVA, so I'm assuming the registration process you have experience of relates to completely amateur built cars, or those which are significantly modified beyond just a simple engine swap?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1991-VAUXHALL-NOVA-TRIP-...
Another Nova for the scrap heap for the sake of a stamp.
Shame as it looks pretty well done.
Another Nova for the scrap heap for the sake of a stamp.
Shame as it looks pretty well done.
The question remains, therefore, does it really matter?
I know there's a paperwork anomaly - but morally what is the issue? If the car is roadworthy, insured with the engine swap declared and taxed then it is legal. Or legal to all intents and purposes - I know the logbook should state the correct engine size.
I am aware of the existence of badly modified cars, but there are plenty that are well done too. In fact they'd likely exceed the numbers of dangerous cases by a good margin. Also consider there are loads of standard cars out there in poor condition too.
I've previously owned a car with an undeclared engine swap. I had disclosed to the insurer (specialist who didn't seem to care) and was paying the correct amount of road tax. The engine conversion was a 1.6 Ford SOHC to a 2.0 Ford SOHC. Hardly much of an engineering challenge.
Ergo I hope these cars don't end up in the crusher. Well I doubt they will unless the killjoys of the world seek to tell tales. This is one case of, well think about it, a victimless crime. Long may it continue.
I know there's a paperwork anomaly - but morally what is the issue? If the car is roadworthy, insured with the engine swap declared and taxed then it is legal. Or legal to all intents and purposes - I know the logbook should state the correct engine size.
I am aware of the existence of badly modified cars, but there are plenty that are well done too. In fact they'd likely exceed the numbers of dangerous cases by a good margin. Also consider there are loads of standard cars out there in poor condition too.
I've previously owned a car with an undeclared engine swap. I had disclosed to the insurer (specialist who didn't seem to care) and was paying the correct amount of road tax. The engine conversion was a 1.6 Ford SOHC to a 2.0 Ford SOHC. Hardly much of an engineering challenge.
Ergo I hope these cars don't end up in the crusher. Well I doubt they will unless the killjoys of the world seek to tell tales. This is one case of, well think about it, a victimless crime. Long may it continue.
That's all well and good until someone honest declares the new engine to the DVLA, £400 for an IVA if they decide the car needs one; and if the engine is from a stolen car you loose the lot and risk getting a criminal record for receiving stolen goods or accessories after the fact in relation to the theft of the motor vehicle that was the donor.
All because someone couldn't be bothered to send a form off when the conversion was done. I'm guessing the same time as the declared respray that has now completely rusted through so that would be at least five years ago if the bodywork had been done professionally. Five to ten years ago an engine swap would have cost you a stamp. The same stamp they used when they declared the colour change.
This failure to declare the engine swap is more than likely deliberate than an oversight on the part of however many owners since it was done.
Just the kind of car that keep the MIB in business.
All because someone couldn't be bothered to send a form off when the conversion was done. I'm guessing the same time as the declared respray that has now completely rusted through so that would be at least five years ago if the bodywork had been done professionally. Five to ten years ago an engine swap would have cost you a stamp. The same stamp they used when they declared the colour change.
This failure to declare the engine swap is more than likely deliberate than an oversight on the part of however many owners since it was done.
Just the kind of car that keep the MIB in business.
Liquid Knight said:
That's all well and good until someone honest declares the new engine to the DVLA, £400 for an IVA if they decide the car needs one; and if the engine is from a stolen car you loose the lot and risk getting a criminal record for receiving stolen goods or accessories after the fact in relation to the theft of the motor vehicle that was the donor.
All because someone couldn't be bothered to send a form off when the conversion was done. I'm guessing the same time as the declared respray that has now completely rusted through so that would be at least five years ago if the bodywork had been done professionally. Five to ten years ago an engine swap would have cost you a stamp. The same stamp they used when they declared the colour change.
This failure to declare the engine swap is more than likely deliberate than an oversight on the part of however many owners since it was done.
Just the kind of car that keep the MIB in business.
I entirel agree with the comments of Liquid Night on this matter. The registration process is definitely much more bureaucratic post IVA and much more evidence based. Perhaps correctly. I have seen cars registered in years gone by that should never have been allowed on the roads because the alterations have been wholly inadequately executed. There s a steady stream of incorrectly registered kit cars coming onto the internet currently where the identity of an old kit car has been illegally attached to a new chassis and drivetrain when in fact the only connection between the two is the vin plates and registration number. Duttons and the like grafted onto new Locost/locust/RH type cars to avoid IVA. All because someone couldn't be bothered to send a form off when the conversion was done. I'm guessing the same time as the declared respray that has now completely rusted through so that would be at least five years ago if the bodywork had been done professionally. Five to ten years ago an engine swap would have cost you a stamp. The same stamp they used when they declared the colour change.
This failure to declare the engine swap is more than likely deliberate than an oversight on the part of however many owners since it was done.
Just the kind of car that keep the MIB in business.
These cars are being spotted and I have seen several in recent months that have been off roadbed by VOSA/DVLA/Police as unlawfully OTR. There is no economically affordable way to IVA such cars because getting old kit cars through the IVA process is just unaffordable. My concern is to ensure as many enthusiasts as possible are aware of these traps on sale on the web often hidden as barn finds and the like.
I used to buy on average two or three unfinished kit cars a year and finish them at my leisure because this was something I enjoyed. i frequently bought without even viewing the cars buying unseen becausei knew I could resolve any problems there were. I gave that up when I saw how the game was changing. Personally I think buying unfinished unregistered radically altered vehicles now is a risky business and I would avoid it. The frequency with which some of these reappear on the net confirms the reality of the modern requirements being much tougher. Best avoided in my view.
That's also where my Ringing Kits thread comes in...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
...as well as selling an identity to potentially disguise a stolen or previously written of vehicle for profit there have been a few VIN and Logbook sales from old Duttons and such deliberately aimed at the kit car fraud market.
Whenever I see a kit car for sale I like the look of and can afford the first question I always ask is...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
...as well as selling an identity to potentially disguise a stolen or previously written of vehicle for profit there have been a few VIN and Logbook sales from old Duttons and such deliberately aimed at the kit car fraud market.
Whenever I see a kit car for sale I like the look of and can afford the first question I always ask is...
Me said:
Can I see the IVA/SVA certificate please?
...if the answer is "no" or "Ummm, ahhhh" I walk away. Unless the car predates the SVA/IVA then I ask to see all the MOT's and original bill of sale. Most genuine kit car guys will have an extensive history file and photo's of the whole build to back their cars up as they tend to be fellow enthusiasts or hobbyists. No file, no sale. amstrange1 said:
There's a whole world of difference between a Golf that's had another Golf engine fitted, and some of the IVA-casualty kit car turds you're talking about here.
there;s also a world of difference between a properly trained mechanic and/or engineer with access to the relevant documentation and systems doing the work using New or properly refurbished parts, new fixings and a proper tool kit and some chav doing an enjin convershun in his garage with parts from the scrapper / spears or repeers cars or the banger track and what ever tools can be scraped together...mph1977 said:
there;s also a world of difference between a properly trained mechanic and/or engineer with access to the relevant documentation and systems doing the work using New or properly refurbished parts, new fixings and a proper tool kit and some chav doing an enjin convershun in his garage with parts from the scrapper / spears or repeers cars or the banger track and what ever tools can be scraped together...
True, but the paperwork doesn't tell you how well (or otherwise!) the conversion has been done - and that is my point. It can help build a picture for you, but it's just that - paperwork. Much better to go and look at the vehicle and make your own judgement. How many old classics are there on the road where their engine numbers no longer match what's on the V5C? Should they all be scrapped too because they might've been bodged?twoblacklines said:
Makes you wonder how it is insured as a 1.8t 230hp when surely it gets insured as a 50hp 1.4E?
MTK Tuning have put a lot of work into this Focus...
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=7568264643543...
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=7568264643543...
DVLA said:
Vehicle make FORD
Date of first registration 18 September 2002
Year of manufacture 2002
Cylinder capacity (cc) 1388cc
CO2Emissions 158 g/km
Fuel type PETROL
Export marker No
Vehicle status Not taxed
Vehicle colour BLUE
Date of first registration 18 September 2002
Year of manufacture 2002
Cylinder capacity (cc) 1388cc
CO2Emissions 158 g/km
Fuel type PETROL
Export marker No
Vehicle status Not taxed
Vehicle colour BLUE
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