another abuse gang

[gpo746]

What happened to the water in the pond mummy ?
It was an accident darling, daddy spilt his coffee in it and its just gone a bit cloudy

[heppers75]

gpo746 said:

What happened to the water in the pond mummy ?
It was an accident darling, daddy spilt his coffee in it and its just gone a bit cloudy

Ok I give in... I am missing an inference - what is it?

[gpo746]

Some will choose to cloud the issue choose to distract and divert but there are more and more who see it for what it is.
Birmingham, Burnley, Blackpool, more people are starting to realise their decisions to patronise, to look the other way, to try to accommodate is starting to unravel.

[WinstonWolf]

Countdown said:

smegmore said:

Source please.

Richard II &Isabella of Valois
King John & Isabella of Angoulemr

Some context.

http://www.thedigitalfolklife.org/childmarriage.ht...

Ah yes, the dark ages...

[smegmore]

WinstonWolf said:

Countdown said:

smegmore said:

Source please.

Richard II &Isabella of Valois
King John & Isabella of Angoulemr

Some context.

http://www.thedigitalfolklife.org/childmarriage.ht...

Ah yes, the dark ages...

Here it is...

smegmore said:

Countdown said:

Richard II &Isabella of Valois
King John & Isabella of Angoulemr

Some context.

http://www.thedigitalfolklife.org/childmarriage.ht...

Meh.

Marriages of convenience for fiscal gain or "pro bono pacis" where in many cases the children never left the nursery (quote) where there was no sexual contact between the parties and you equate this with the antics of the Pakistani communities in places like Rochdale and Birmingham?

A poor 2/10, must do better.

Get real.

[heppers75]

gpo746 said:

Some will choose to cloud the issue choose to distract and divert but there are more and more who see it for what it is.
Birmingham, Burnley, Blackpool, more people are starting to realise their decisions to patronise, to look the other way, to try to accommodate is starting to unravel.

Fury smurf...

Yes you are right, it will be interesting to see if the likes of "countdown" really step up and also acknowledge......

But I will bet you £150 to the charity of your choice "Countdown" doesn't really reply to this thread beyond my last post.

Maybe something unrelated and or differential... But 100% nothing addressing what was said.

[smegmore]

heppers75 said:

gpo746 said:

Some will choose to cloud the issue choose to distract and divert but there are more and more who see it for what it is.
Birmingham, Burnley, Blackpool, more people are starting to realise their decisions to patronise, to look the other way, to try to accommodate is starting to unravel.

Fury smurf...

Yes you are right, it will be interesting to see if the likes of "countdown" really step up and also acknowledge......

But I will bet you £150 to the charity of your choice "Countdown" doesn't really reply to this thread beyond my last post.

Agreed.

It seems that the apologists who are so keen on defending their animalistic brethren have gone to ground.

[heppers75]

smegmore said:

heppers75 said:

gpo746 said:

Some will choose to cloud the issue choose to distract and divert but there are more and more who see it for what it is.
Birmingham, Burnley, Blackpool, more people are starting to realise their decisions to patronise, to look the other way, to try to accommodate is starting to unravel.

Fury smurf...

Yes you are right, it will be interesting to see if the likes of "countdown" really step up and also acknowledge......

But I will bet you £150 to the charity of your choice "Countdown" doesn't really reply to this thread beyond my last post.

Agreed.

It seems that the apologists who are so keen on defending their animalistic brethren have gone to ground.

Might I suggest that phrases like "animalistic brethren" do not really foster any sort of ability to resolve this situation.

You saying that and Countdown being who (I think) he is will achieve very little, you are forever going to but heads.

The ones that are doing this are animals of course... But I am a Catholic and we have our fair share of demons!

[smegmore]

heppers75 said:

Might I suggest that phrases like "animalistic brethren" do not really foster any sort of ability to resolve this situation.

You saying that and Countdown being who (I think) he is will achieve very little, you are forever going to but heads.

The ones that are doing this are animals of course... But I am a Catholic and we have our fair share of demons!

Erm...

To be honest, I don't really give a toss about hurting Countdown's or anyone elses feelings, if he continues to defend these animals and point his finger elsewhere i.e. "they're doing it so it must be OK" kind of thing then he and all the other 'brothers' who come on here to spout their rhetoric are fair game for criticism as far as I'm concerned.

[gpo746]

heppers75 said:

gpo746 said:

Some will choose to cloud the issue choose to distract and divert but there are more and more who see it for what it is.
Birmingham, Burnley, Blackpool, more people are starting to realise their decisions to patronise, to look the other way, to try to accommodate is starting to unravel.

Fury smurf...

Yes you are right, it will be interesting to see if the likes of "countdown" really step up and also acknowledge......

But I will bet you £150 to the charity of your choice "Countdown" doesn't really reply to this thread beyond my last post.

Maybe something unrelated and or differential... But 100% nothing addressing what was said.

To be fair to him Countdown has always struck me as quite reasoned and pragmatic. There are others who simply spin it for all its worth. They are rather like the Iraqi guy who was claimning victory when the US tanks were in the background.
I just think that its so entrenched and fostered in several that their community will
!. Deny it exists
2. Cover it up
Then there are the idiotic patronising people who try to accommodate it, pretend its not there, don't address it.

[Countdown]

heppers75 said:

I think history is literally littered with examples of people who have chosen to selectively interpret their chosen beliefs system to perpetrate all manner of acts contrary to the socially acceptable norm and Islam is not exempt from that whether you like it or not.

I don’t disagree. There are several issues and conflicts currently ongoing that are caused by interpretations of religious doctrine. However that doesn’t automatically mean this is one of them.

heppers75 said:

I would also possibly totally agree that their chosen belief system was not a part of this particular issue, however we seem to be having proven overwhelmingly as these stories reach the surface that there are not that many common denominators within the perpetrators and again like it or not their chosen belief system is an overwhelming common denominator.

I can think of two other common denominators; they were predominantly of Pakistani origin and they appear to be predominantly taxi drivers.

Back in the ‘80s scoutmasters were the usual culprits. Then it was roman catholic priests and nowadays (apart from Pakistani taxi drivers) it seems to be celebrities. You could argue that there’s a common denominator in each of those cases case. But it’s irrelevant in each case.

The main common factor, in all those cases, was that people had access to vulnerable children. It wasn’t because they were scoutmasters, or RC priests, or celebrities, or muslims. There is nothing inherent in each of those roles that makes them act as paedophiles. What those roles do allow, is easy access to children, which enables paedophiles to take advantage. But, for some reason, you think that “muslim” is an important, relevant, causative factor?

heppers75 said:

The problem is that is not the case, you might not like it, you might not want to hear it, that might be because you are a follower of that same religion, maye a part of the demographic in part, or just don't like that kind of connection being made for whatever reason. However I am afraid the facts are the facts and the connections are not that tentative or require much in the way of a leap of any faith to understand.

It’s irrelevant whether I want to like it or hear it. I think the main thing is that the Police, Social services et al investigate it as thoroughly as possible because, despite all the publicity, it still seems to be going on. These people need to be found out and locked up. Looking at irrelevant factors isn’t going to achieve this.

[andymc]

Countdown said:

heppers75 said:

I think history is literally littered with examples of people who have chosen to selectively interpret their chosen beliefs system to perpetrate all manner of acts contrary to the socially acceptable norm and Islam is not exempt from that whether you like it or not.

I don’t disagree. There are several issues and conflicts currently ongoing that are caused by interpretations of religious doctrine. However that doesn’t automatically mean this is one of them.

heppers75 said:

I would also possibly totally agree that their chosen belief system was not a part of this particular issue, however we seem to be having proven overwhelmingly as these stories reach the surface that there are not that many common denominators within the perpetrators and again like it or not their chosen belief system is an overwhelming common denominator.

I can think of two other common denominators; they were predominantly of Pakistani origin and they appear to be predominantly taxi drivers.

Back in the ‘80s scoutmasters were the usual culprits. Then it was roman catholic priests and nowadays (apart from Pakistani taxi drivers) it seems to be celebrities. You could argue that there’s a common denominator in each of those cases case. But it’s irrelevant in each case.

The main common factor, in all those cases, was that people had access to vulnerable children. It wasn’t because they were scoutmasters, or RC priests, or celebrities, or muslims. There is nothing inherent in each of those roles that makes them act as paedophiles. What those roles do allow, is easy access to children, which enables paedophiles to take advantage. But, for some reason, you think that “muslim” is an important, relevant, causative factor?

heppers75 said:

The problem is that is not the case, you might not like it, you might not want to hear it, that might be because you are a follower of that same religion, maye a part of the demographic in part, or just don't like that kind of connection being made for whatever reason. However I am afraid the facts are the facts and the connections are not that tentative or require much in the way of a leap of any faith to understand.

It’s irrelevant whether I want to like it or hear it. I think the main thing is that the Police, Social services et al investigate it as thoroughly as possible because, despite all the publicity, it still seems to be going on. These people need to be found out and locked up. Looking at irrelevant factors isn’t going to achieve this.

It's time for the police and the courts to MTFU and impose draconian sentences and then when they are released treat them like the lepers they are to the community, both black and white communities

[heppers75]

Countdown said:

heppers75 said:

I think history is literally littered with examples of people who have chosen to selectively interpret their chosen beliefs system to perpetrate all manner of acts contrary to the socially acceptable norm and Islam is not exempt from that whether you like it or not.

I don’t disagree. There are several issues and conflicts currently ongoing that are caused by interpretations of religious doctrine. However that doesn’t automatically mean this is one of them.

heppers75 said:

I would also possibly totally agree that their chosen belief system was not a part of this particular issue, however we seem to be having proven overwhelmingly as these stories reach the surface that there are not that many common denominators within the perpetrators and again like it or not their chosen belief system is an overwhelming common denominator.

I can think of two other common denominators; they were predominantly of Pakistani origin and they appear to be predominantly taxi drivers.

Back in the ‘80s scoutmasters were the usual culprits. Then it was roman catholic priests and nowadays (apart from Pakistani taxi drivers) it seems to be celebrities. You could argue that there’s a common denominator in each of those cases case. But it’s irrelevant in each case.

The main common factor, in all those cases, was that people had access to vulnerable children. It wasn’t because they were scoutmasters, or RC priests, or celebrities, or muslims. There is nothing inherent in each of those roles that makes them act as paedophiles. What those roles do allow, is easy access to children, which enables paedophiles to take advantage. But, for some reason, you think that “muslim” is an important, relevant, causative factor?

heppers75 said:

The problem is that is not the case, you might not like it, you might not want to hear it, that might be because you are a follower of that same religion, maye a part of the demographic in part, or just don't like that kind of connection being made for whatever reason. However I am afraid the facts are the facts and the connections are not that tentative or require much in the way of a leap of any faith to understand.

It’s irrelevant whether I want to like it or hear it. I think the main thing is that the Police, Social services et al investigate it as thoroughly as possible because, despite all the publicity, it still seems to be going on. These people need to be found out and locked up. Looking at irrelevant factors isn’t going to achieve this.

Well I think it is nothing if not naive to ignore an element of commonality which has clearly got rather obvious connections, however I am sure you have your reasons for not wanting that correlation to be drawn and you are clearly articulate and intelligent enough to argue around it to a degree that allows you to be comfortable that it need not be drawn.

We will it seems have to agree to disagree.

ETA - Because you asked a direct question I initially missed. I happen to think that there is a causality factor with their given belief system because there is a rather healthy weight of evidence that there are many many followers and believers that follow the same do hold somewhat shall we say not exactly modern thinking when it comes to the fairer sex in general . Also some (but not all) consider anyone that does not follow their chosen belief system less than worthy, if you then consider how they view members of the fairer sex who are not a follower of the same belief system they are to some (not all) the very lowest of the low. It is not the worlds most illogical leap to suggest that is likely to be "a factor" at the very least.

Edited by heppers75 on Thursday 27th November 10:22

[Mermaid]

gpo746 said:

To be fair to him Countdown has always struck me as quite reasoned and pragmatic.

He is a good bloke, but religion does affect his vision.

On the Israel issue, would he care if the Palestinians were Christians, Hindus, Druzes.

On this issue, would he be more vocal against the perpetrators

others too...

But all told, better than the rest .

[Bill]

I think "because Muslim" is a vast over simplification. The misogyny and segregation of sexes hasn't helped, but this is a perfect storm (for want of a better description) of vulnerable girls coming into contact with men who would exploit them in a situation that was ignored by people who could and should have stopped it.

There seems to be a group of men from many backgrounds who have learnt that vulnerable girls can be cheaply bought for sex, and this has been ignored for years by the authorities. Some of these men (ie the gangs that we are talking about here - seemingly mostly taxi drivers of Pakistani heritage) are part of a group that work together and have a similar background who have taken this further and rather than being "users" have progressed to trafficking and hence serious physical as well as sexual abuse. Even the paedophile element is, I suspect, merely a product of availability - the girls who were most vulnerable are underage.

This is not "normal" behaviour for Muslims, or even taxi drivers, this has become normalised in a relatively small subsection because it has gone unchallenged.

This is why you get denial from the wider Muslim and even Pakistani community when you try to use this as a stick to beat them with - they don't see it as their problem, not least because they don't identify with a bunch of drink and drug using paedophiles.

[freakybacon]

Bristol.

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-11-27/13-somali...

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Bristol-Somali-sex-ab...

Somali? Not "Asian" then?

Edit to add Guardian link:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/27/gui...

Edited by freakybacon on Thursday 27th November 12:43

[heppers75]

freakybacon said:

Bristol.

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2014-11-27/13-somali...

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Bristol-Somali-sex-ab...

Somali? Not "Asian" then?

Edit to add Guardian link:

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/27/gui...

Edited by freakybacon on Thursday 27th November 12:43

Not Asian no.... However based on the predominant sky fairy of choice in Somalia I suspect they may fit another one of the common denominators.

However of course that is not a factor!

[TTwiggy]

He's also in possession of a Y chromosome. Maybe this should be acknowledged as a common factor?

[heppers75]

TTwiggy said:

He's also in possession of a Y chromosome. Maybe this should be acknowledged as a common factor?

Absolutely, all common factors should be brought to bear. What you don't do is ignore one because it is unpalatable to others that share it!

Afterall I share that common factor and it does not bother me that would be used.

[TTwiggy]

heppers75 said:

TTwiggy said:

He's also in possession of a Y chromosome. Maybe this should be acknowledged as a common factor?

Absolutely, all common factors should be brought to bear. What you don't do is ignore one because it is unpalatable to others that share it!

Afterall I share that common factor and it does not bother me that would be used.

Interesting. Because when I raised this point on this (or another similar) thread, I was called an apologist.

Personally, as a male, I consider it to be crucial to examine whether something in modern 'male culture' has lead to situations like these. It seems disingenuous to demand that, for instance, the Muslim community address this problem without considering that it might be a wider issue.

Because from what I can see, whether it be members of the establishment shagging and murdering rent boys, or celebrities putting their hands down the knickers of anyone they feel like, or Asian/Muslin/Pakistani taxi drivers passing underage girls round like toys, the common factor is that it's men doing this.