RE: Citroen fits insurance black boxes
Discussion
I wonder if, because its fitted as standard any insurance company you use would insist that it be operational and feeding back to them before they would consider insuring you, or if you could just remove it and get insurance from whoever.
Also, if fitted as standard I wonder if they will be wired into the engine management/ security loom or will they be a separate system, I would be thoroughly tempted to cut/hammer/gas axe the thing out of any car that had one fitted. Obviously that may be a problem if you suddenly find your car immobilised.
Also, if fitted as standard I wonder if they will be wired into the engine management/ security loom or will they be a separate system, I would be thoroughly tempted to cut/hammer/gas axe the thing out of any car that had one fitted. Obviously that may be a problem if you suddenly find your car immobilised.
If they were installed in all cars and used to issue speeding fines, the government wouldn't make anything (and it would lose all the revenue from fixed cameras and scamera vans too) because once the possibility of getting away with it is removed nobody would do it.
There are plans to put trackers in cars for road charging purposes - if you want to get paranoid, that's where you need to look, not into a commercial arrangement between risky drivers and some insurers.
There are plans to put trackers in cars for road charging purposes - if you want to get paranoid, that's where you need to look, not into a commercial arrangement between risky drivers and some insurers.
otolith said:
If they were installed in all cars and used to issue speeding fines, the government wouldn't make anything (and it would lose all the revenue from fixed cameras and scamera vans too) because once the possibility of getting away with it is removed nobody would do it.
Yes; it's called Intelligent Speed Adaptation and our bureaucratic buddies in Brussels and London are already talking about it. See hereotolith said:
There are plans to put trackers in cars for road charging purposes - if you want to get paranoid, that's where you need to look, not into a commercial arrangement between risky drivers and some insurers.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.Ok might be a dumb question but what do these black boxes actually do?
Measure speed
Measure G force for cornering
Measure braking incase of accidents
Record indicators, lights, engine condition or outside temperature
Use some kind of GPS for route of travel
Upload/download information wirelessly
Maybe have some kind of video footage
If it can only measure speed and route of travel its kinda retarded not really gonna help you in low speed accidents. Say a usual car prang....
Measure speed
Measure G force for cornering
Measure braking incase of accidents
Record indicators, lights, engine condition or outside temperature
Use some kind of GPS for route of travel
Upload/download information wirelessly
Maybe have some kind of video footage
If it can only measure speed and route of travel its kinda retarded not really gonna help you in low speed accidents. Say a usual car prang....
JU5T1N said:
Ok might be a dumb question but what do these black boxes actually do?
otolith said:
The sort of things they are interested in logging:
• The time of day or night you drive
• The speed you drive at on different sorts of road
• How smoothly you drive
• If you take breaks on long journeys
• Your motorway miles
• Your total mileage
• The total number of journeys you make
• Details of any accidents.
http://www.insurethebox.com/telematics/how-does-it...
• The time of day or night you drive
• The speed you drive at on different sorts of road
• How smoothly you drive
• If you take breaks on long journeys
• Your motorway miles
• Your total mileage
• The total number of journeys you make
• Details of any accidents.
http://www.insurethebox.com/telematics/how-does-it...
JU5T1N said:
If it can only measure speed and route of travel its kinda retarded not really gonna help you in low speed accidents. Say a usual car prang....
They're not meant for that, they are meant to detect (and deter) the kind of behaviour that insurers believe to be risky. They are a way of offering less ridiculous premiums to drivers from groups which tend to drive badly. If someone is paying a couple of hundred quid a year, the offer to halve it with one of these isn't very tempting. If they're paying thousands, however...I'm going to ask my sister in law at the weekend what this all means for insurance (Acturist) so would this make her job both easier and more accurate in determining those statistics that no doubt influence and drive her no doubt very complicated maths. Would the black box render her redundant to effect more transparent yes or no answers i.e. will this mean knock for knock claims will be even harder to settle.
Today's (11/04/14) from the Insurers is, to me, frightening. I like to drive and not as slowly as some people but i don't do 120 in heavy rain, snow, or heavy traffic, I use my common sense. yes Telematics can prove that you were obeying the speed limit at the time of an r.t.a. but that doesn't mean that your driving was appropriate. The thought of a computer giving me a black mark each time I cornered 'too' hard or broke a speed limit is IMO just a way of racking up premiums, after all in today's story the insurer stated quite clearly that if the black-box shows that the driver was consistently safe this MAY lead to a reduction in their following years premium. The black-box would not show that the driver had just downed 5 pints before getting behind the wheel and making it home without being caught by one of the miniscule number of police officers that are about nowadays nor would it tell that 'he' went through a traffic light on red and the list of inadequacies could go on.
I enjoy driving my car, I don't want to be second guessed by a bloody computer nor feel that I have a spy in my car invading my personal space.
long may I have my freedom of Choice.
I enjoy driving my car, I don't want to be second guessed by a bloody computer nor feel that I have a spy in my car invading my personal space.
long may I have my freedom of Choice.
don't worry though the data collected will never be seen by anyone other than insurance co's ... I have been driving for nearly 35 years. I have a license for any size heavy truck, motorbike, car, I spent time as a police officer in traffic patrol, and I regularly participate in motorsports such as circuit racing. After having dealt with the aftermath of traffic accidents in the police I am all for road safety, but black boxes are not among measures which I think are necessary. Generally they only benefit insurance companies who make money out of them being fitted and being able to refuse claims based on the most trivial of reasons, based on their own criteria. They are also an invasion of privacy, and are not an indicator of driving ability or safety. We all have experienced seeing someone who might be driving slowly and within the law, but who obviously has inadequate awareness and what we would generalize as a "bad" driver, and yet others who might for example brake vigorously at times but can be a very perceptive driver, but solely based on black box data could be classed as driving aggressively and who contributed towards an accident, which may be very far from the truth.
Unfortunately in years to come these boxes will probably become required by insurance companies, but if you refuse one due to "freedom of choice" then your insurance costs will no doubt end up being prohibitive. I have nothing to hide, I genuinely stick to the speed limits, haven't had an accident in over 25 years, and I confine any "enthusiastic driving" to the race track, but if these boxes become an expected requirement, I will exchange my modern car for an old classic, one to which these boxes can't be fitted. I may have nothing to hide, but I object to my every movement being scrutinized, and also being subjected to interpretation by a computer or by someone sat in an office who wasn't in the car with me to determine in real life whether or not any of my actions were acceptable.
Unfortunately in years to come these boxes will probably become required by insurance companies, but if you refuse one due to "freedom of choice" then your insurance costs will no doubt end up being prohibitive. I have nothing to hide, I genuinely stick to the speed limits, haven't had an accident in over 25 years, and I confine any "enthusiastic driving" to the race track, but if these boxes become an expected requirement, I will exchange my modern car for an old classic, one to which these boxes can't be fitted. I may have nothing to hide, but I object to my every movement being scrutinized, and also being subjected to interpretation by a computer or by someone sat in an office who wasn't in the car with me to determine in real life whether or not any of my actions were acceptable.
A lot of the vehicles I drove in the Army were fitted with the "Green,Amber,Red" lights, a recording system to monitor driving.
Presumably it meant green for "Christian motorist" and red for "Dangerous b
d"
I got pulled up once for the light going red and being recorded. It became clear that it had recorded me wheelspinning on a slope (a necessary part of our patrol route in a Hilux) in the snow and considered it dangerous. I was believed by my CO, but if was a civilian dealing with an insurance company I'm unsure weather they would have listened.
I observed it doing various other things at times. I once swerved to avoid a football kicked into the road, it considered this dangerous. It also went amber when I took a corner I'd usually calmly take at 40mph in my Gti-6 at 30 in the hilux. The Hilux handled it fine and barely experienced any body roll!
It reckon, that in an accident that if the recorded driving prior to the collision was "green" the insurance company will be content that they were driving sensibly. Not necessarily true. On the other hand if the recorded driving was "red" they will assume the opposite. What if the driver was performing an avoidance or emergency stop?
No one will win, and the ones who lose will usually be unfortunate drivers, not bad ones.
I don't like it.
Presumably it meant green for "Christian motorist" and red for "Dangerous b
d" I got pulled up once for the light going red and being recorded. It became clear that it had recorded me wheelspinning on a slope (a necessary part of our patrol route in a Hilux) in the snow and considered it dangerous. I was believed by my CO, but if was a civilian dealing with an insurance company I'm unsure weather they would have listened.
I observed it doing various other things at times. I once swerved to avoid a football kicked into the road, it considered this dangerous. It also went amber when I took a corner I'd usually calmly take at 40mph in my Gti-6 at 30 in the hilux. The Hilux handled it fine and barely experienced any body roll!
It reckon, that in an accident that if the recorded driving prior to the collision was "green" the insurance company will be content that they were driving sensibly. Not necessarily true. On the other hand if the recorded driving was "red" they will assume the opposite. What if the driver was performing an avoidance or emergency stop?
No one will win, and the ones who lose will usually be unfortunate drivers, not bad ones.
I don't like it.
Company I work for had these in all vehicles and we were encouraged to drive well and as a reward were given vouchers.
I drove a Ford ranger, 40,000 miles a year with not the most ridged suspension in the motor world and I never even received a voucher was never out of the amber much but not in the red very often I would get a red flash for cornering or heavy braking but to be expected in a vehicle with huge body roll. Never crashed it though!
We have 2 colleagues who did have serious crashes in their Rangers in fact one crashed 2 and they were the 2 who were claiming the most vouchers. It was beyond belief. The reason, they drove like Miss Daisy day to day thus not upsetting the system but actually had major accidents.
Another colleague was always in the red did not matter how he drove he just could not drive anything but a straight road or get red. We swapped vehicles and so did our scores funny this. We asked a couple of other driver who said the same. Our boss who mainly did motorway miles in a Volvo car had the same issue no points no voucher so he couldn't figure out how to drive better to beat the system.
Ours were also set at 80 MPH so you could drive as fast as you like on any road but not over 80!
Turns out it was highlighted the systems were not calibrated exact across the fleet or per vehicle.
So drive a Porsche and you'll be OK but drive a family hatchback and you'll have to drive a lot better than the Porsche driver.
Needless to say we do not have them any more!
I drove a Ford ranger, 40,000 miles a year with not the most ridged suspension in the motor world and I never even received a voucher was never out of the amber much but not in the red very often I would get a red flash for cornering or heavy braking but to be expected in a vehicle with huge body roll. Never crashed it though!
We have 2 colleagues who did have serious crashes in their Rangers in fact one crashed 2 and they were the 2 who were claiming the most vouchers. It was beyond belief. The reason, they drove like Miss Daisy day to day thus not upsetting the system but actually had major accidents.
Another colleague was always in the red did not matter how he drove he just could not drive anything but a straight road or get red. We swapped vehicles and so did our scores funny this. We asked a couple of other driver who said the same. Our boss who mainly did motorway miles in a Volvo car had the same issue no points no voucher so he couldn't figure out how to drive better to beat the system.
Ours were also set at 80 MPH so you could drive as fast as you like on any road but not over 80!
Turns out it was highlighted the systems were not calibrated exact across the fleet or per vehicle.
So drive a Porsche and you'll be OK but drive a family hatchback and you'll have to drive a lot better than the Porsche driver.
Needless to say we do not have them any more!
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