LPG Chimaera (Follow My Conversion)

[phazed]

S'true, my 4.0 Disco was the same, amazing!

[SILICONEKID345HP]

I spoke to a guy the other day with a very modern 1000cc small car with LPG ,he has broke the 100mpg equivalent.

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

I spoke to a guy the other day with a very modern 1000cc small car with LPG ,he has broke the 100mpg equivalent.

I don't doubt it.

I'm just back from the Neil Garner day which was excellent by the way, 'Ol Gasag' is running so well, the car is smoother than a smooth thing at all speeds and the MSD HT leads are proving to be the Mutt's Nuts.

Drove the whole 97 miles back at a steady 100 leptons cruise sucking gas at 22mpg which is pretty much the same rate as it sucks petrol at that speed so the LPG economy losses clearly get better & better the faster I go!!!

The only difference I can tell between the fuels is 22mpg on gas is the same as 40mpg on petrol, not bad for a nice ton up run

If I'd held it down to 80/85 it'll easily do the C/E of 45mpg plus, but she pulls so well I cant help squeezing the throttle

I think she's ready for the SC-Power kit now, so I spent an hour today with my good friends at Lloyd Specialist Developments discussing the blower project

"Gas is Good"

[SILICONEKID345HP]

ChimpOnGas said:

I don't doubt it.

I'm just back from the Neil Garner day which was excellent by the way, 'Ol Gasag' is running so well, the car is smoother than a smooth thing at all speeds and the MSD HT leads are proving to be the Mutt's Nuts.

Drove the whole 97 miles back at a steady 100 leptons cruise sucking gas at 22mpg which is pretty much the same rate as it sucks petrol at that speed so the LPG economy losses clearly get better & better the faster I go!!!

The only difference I can tell between the fuels is 22mpg on gas is the same as 40mpg on petrol, not bad for a nice ton up run

If I'd held it down to 80/85 it'll easily do the C/E of 45mpg plus, but she pulls so well I cant help squeezing the throttle

I think she's ready for the SC-Power kit now, so I spent an hour today with my good friends at Lloyd Specialist Developments discussing the blower project

"Gas is Good"

Being so obsessed with economy will the Supercharger use more fuel and spoil what you have achieved .?

Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Saturday 27th September 19:39

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Being so obsessed with economy will the Supercharger use more fuel and spoil what you have achieved .?

Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Saturday 27th September 19:39

Well the answer is yes & no Daz

Improvements in volumetric efficiency achieved by forced induction (especially a turbo but also to some degree an efficient supercharger) can actually deliver small economy improvements at light load cruise compared with the same engine burdened with natural aspiration.

It's all to do with the improvements in outright volumetric efficiencies and the additional torque provided by forced induction.

The economy gains are small yet real, but in truth only exist in that light load cruise window.

While the VE element takes care of itself, to take advantage of the potential economy benefits of the additional torque element I will need to raise the final drive gearing which is very much part of the mater plan BTW.

I think people understandably misinterpret my economy obsession, to help people understand the way my brain works they need to understand my move to LPG is really just stage one of that master plan.

The move to forced induction was always the ultimate goal and is driven by my need for more power, the truth is I'm just like every other power hungry TVR enthusiast

The difference is I'm trying to think out the downsides of more power in a holistic way, what I'm trying to say is....

"What if I can have all that power without the horrific wallet punishing fuel prices that invariably go with it?"

Let me explain further, and bare with me Daz it's actually quite simple

First off, lets say after going forced induction my average fuel economy drops to say 22mpg on petrol.

Then lets say I lose 15% of that economy because of the chemistry of LPG, so I end up sucking the gas at 18.7mpg.

Well 18.7mpg on gas is still the same as 35mpg on petrol which I think everyone will agree is more than acceptable for a supercharged 4.0 litre Chimaera that makes 350 horse power at the crank.

So you see, yes I will obviously lose economy going forced induction.

But gas is sooo cheap, it'll still be cheaper to run than say a standard 230hp 4.0 litre Chimaera sucking petrol.

My plan is to spank you at the lights, then spank you at the pumps too Daz

Get ready to witness the master plan mate, it's been a long time coming but like any well conceived plan it's designed to deliver something better than we've seen already

[SILICONEKID345HP]

ChimpOnGas said:

Well the answer is yes & no Daz

Improvements in volumetric efficiency achieved by forced induction (especially a turbo but also to some degree an efficient supercharger) can actually deliver small economy improvements at light load cruise compared with the same engine burdened with natural aspiration.

It's all to do with the improvements in outright volumetric efficiencies and the additional torque provided by forced induction.

The economy gains are small yet real, but in truth only exist in that light load cruise window.

While the VE element takes care of itself, to take advantage of the potential economy benefits of the additional torque element I will need to raise the final drive gearing which is very much part of the mater plan BTW.

I think people understandably misinterpret my economy obsession, to help people understand the way my brain works they need to understand my move to LPG is really just stage one of that master plan.

The move to forced induction was always the ultimate goal and is driven by my need for more power, the truth is I'm just like every other power hungry TVR enthusiast

The difference is I'm trying to think out the downsides of more power in a holistic way, what I'm trying to say is....

"What if I can have all that power without the horrific wallet punishing fuel prices that invariably go with it?"

Let me explain further, and bare with me Daz it's actually quite simple

First off, lets say after going forced induction my average fuel economy drops to say 22mpg on petrol.

Then lets say I lose 15% of that economy because of the chemistry of LPG, so I end up sucking the gas at 18.7mpg.

Well 18.7mpg on gas is still the same as 35mpg on petrol which I think everyone will agree is more than acceptable for a supercharged 4.0 litre Chimaera that makes 350 horse power at the crank.

So you see, yes I will obviously lose economy going forced induction.

But gas is sooo cheap, it'll still be cheaper to run than say a standard 230hp 4.0 litre Chimaera sucking petrol.

My plan is to spank you at the lights, then spank you at the pumps too Daz

Get ready to witness the master plan mate, it's been a long time coming but like any well conceived plan it's designed to deliver something better than we've seen already

Good post ! and very good answers . When you get round to changing the rear drive can you order two of those crown wheel and pinions ?I have had no luck trying to get one at a decent price .

Forgot to mention, will you be changing the cam and dropping the CR ?

[pjac67]

- Dave makes a load of sense;

- stop messing about and join the club;

I'm scheduled to get a few tweaks from these guys:
http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/fully...

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

Good post ! and very good answers . When you get round to changing the rear drive can you order two of those crown wheel and pinions ?I have had no luck trying to get one at a decent price .

Forgot to mention, will you be changing the cam and dropping the CR ?

The cam stays the same for now, clearly there could be some real advantages in going for a profile designed for forced induction in mind but this can wait.

Availability of the crown wheel we both need is a problem, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it, perhaps we could solve it together at reasonable cost with a group buy deal from a decent engineer with a CNC milling machine?

The compression ratio could potentially be a real issue at anything over 9.8:1, but fortunately I have a pretty standard 4.0 litre cross bolted serp engine so while it's definitely strong enough to take the blower I also very much doubt if it's compression ration is over a very low & blower safe 9:1.

TBH I'm not too bothered about any of your three points of concern at this stage, I'm more concerned with solving the traditional supercharger issues.

1. Belt slip

2. Air temps

3. Crank case pressurisation and the subsequently excessive & unacceptable oil consumption that can also lead to forced induction enemy number 1...

The dreaded.... Detonation!!!!

Fortunately we have some ideas that I hope should help on all three points.

[ChimpOnGas]

pjac67 said:

- Dave makes a load of sense;

- stop messing about and join the club;

I'm scheduled to get a few tweaks from these guys:
http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/fully...

Good choice mate, as soon as the boys at LSD unlock all that latent potential in your system you'll totally get what I was banging on about.

And I can't wait to join you in the 350 LPG club

Great to see you and chat today

[KateV8]

Yep good luck with those crankcase pressure and detonation issues Dave, no doubt Nathan will be following the prototype system they tried on my car. Unfortunately it came too late to save my engine which is now at TVR Power waiting to be pulled apart.

[ChimpOnGas]

KateV8 said:

Yep good luck with those crankcase pressure and detonation issues Dave, no doubt Nathan will be following the prototype system they tried on my car. Unfortunately it came too late to save my engine which is now at TVR Power waiting to be pulled apart.

I've understood your challenges, and I'd also put good money on there being absolutely nothing wrong with your engine.

Go back to Lloyds and let them solve it for you, they want to support you and will.

Don't spend where you don't need to mate, cost effective solutions are available.

PM me if you need to discuss, we all want to see you right

[KateV8]

With due respect to all concerned Dave including yourself the evidence is overwhelming and my engine is shot, only two years old. Lessons will no doubt have been learned and I really hope your SC conversion goes smoothly on the back of those lessons but my beautiful and much loved Kate is crippled and now away from me until Decenber :-(

[SILICONEKID345HP]

KateV8 said:

Yep good luck with those crankcase pressure and detonation issues Dave, no doubt Nathan will be following the prototype system they tried on my car. Unfortunately it came too late to save my engine which is now at TVR Power waiting to be pulled apart.

What that lovely John Eales build ,nice torquey 4.6 engine ,good for 150000 miles .

Thought you had water injection ! more i hear of this the more forced induction puts me off .

Have you thought about exciting your Julie in other ways ,it would be a`lot cheaper

Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Sunday 28th September 09:59

[db484bhpv8]

Tell us more of the MSD HT leads please.
I need to replace my Moroso's, Been on a while and a couple cracking up from heat damage.

[ChimpOnGas]

SILICONEKID345HP said:

KateV8 said:

Yep good luck with those crankcase pressure and detonation issues Dave, no doubt Nathan will be following the prototype system they tried on my car. Unfortunately it came too late to save my engine which is now at TVR Power waiting to be pulled apart.

What that lovely John Eales build ,nice torquey 4.6 engine ,good for 150000 miles .

Thought you had water injection ! more i hear of this the more forced induction puts me off .

Have you thought about exciting your Julie in other ways ,it would be a`lot cheaper

Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Sunday 28th September 09:59

Nothing wrong with forced induction on this engine, it's been proven many times over.

What you need to do is either build the engine with a compression ratio that's safe with a blower or ironically start with a standard engine that comes with a very low compression ratio to start with.

After that its just a case of ensuring the crankcase doesn't get over pressurised or you'll end up burning oil, that's not just bad for oil consumption but can also mean detonation.

Keep the compression ratio low, the crankcase properly vented and oil out of the combustion chambers and a blower on a Rover V8 will not give issues.

Build a high compression engine designed to make good naturally aspirated power then stick a blower on it and you're making trouble for yourself, like all these things it's all about good planning.

[KateV8]

The question of compression ratio was asked at the outset of the project, the answer from the installers was that it would be fine. In the light of experience it seems Dave's advice on this issue is sound.

[SILICONEKID345HP]

KateV8 said:

The question of compression ratio was asked at the outset of the project, the answer from the installers was that it would be fine. In the light of experience it seems Dave's advice on this issue is sound.

What was the compression of your engine ? I thought you had it built for Torque more than bhp ! You had a mild cam so why did it blow up ?Was IT anything to do with not being intercooled and relying on the water injection ?

Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Sunday 28th September 13:33

[KateV8]

No Daz, not at all. The water injection controller turned out to be faulty which was poor manufacture but the cooling effect when it worked was more than adequate. When it failed it did not contribute to the engine damage as it was configured to automatically switch to a safe map on failure which it did. The damage was caused by crankcase pressure which in turn fed the cylinders with high levels of oil vapour thus causing detonation. Out of respect to the suppliers/installers it's best to leave this subject out of a public forum at this point, enough has been said. If anyone is thinking of supercharging then it can be done with either water or intercooling perfectly safely and my engine will be rebuilt around the blower. The driving characteristics are perfectly suited to my driving style and I wouldn't want to put anyone off. Mistakes were made on my engine, it's likely to cost over £5000 to fix but the car will never be sold, the Market value is meaningless to me and all that matters is it's return to the road :-).

[ChimpOnGas]

1. Replace your power steering pump with an electric one.

2. Where your power steering pump once sat fit one of these:



http://www.gzmotorsports.com/

[ChimpOnGas]

db484bhpv8 said:

Tell us more of the MSD HT leads please.
I need to replace my Moroso's, Been on a while and a couple cracking up from heat damage.

Good leads, work well, by far the best economy and smoothest running since fitting them.

Of course this could just be a reflection on how poor my Magnecors were performing, at least two were proven to be failing.

I've ditched the extenders and gone with my own double skinned protection system that so far has proved to work well.

















To be fair its still early days for me with these leads though, but so far so good