LPG Chimaera (Follow My Conversion)
Discussion
pjac67 said:
I agree with Dave.
Filled my 5.4l Griff up with LPG (65litres) at 57p/l acouple of weeks ago and have had a hoon to West Wales @ 220m (see TVR spotted- I wasn't trying to conserve fuel) and been driving nearly another 100 miles on the same tank. Sorry can't calc. MPG as I haven't needed to fill up yet....
Daz - stop whining and get converted.
ETA - I usually refer to LPG as half price which it usually is but at the moment is < half ie 57p v 117p...
Finally filled up this afternoon - 26.5 mpg on LPG (must try harder) although Filled my 5.4l Griff up with LPG (65litres) at 57p/l acouple of weeks ago and have had a hoon to West Wales @ 220m (see TVR spotted- I wasn't trying to conserve fuel) and been driving nearly another 100 miles on the same tank. Sorry can't calc. MPG as I haven't needed to fill up yet....
Daz - stop whining and get converted.
ETA - I usually refer to LPG as half price which it usually is but at the moment is < half ie 57p v 117p...
Edited by pjac67 on Wednesday 10th December 21:47
that includes seeing 150 leptons during Welsh hoon (forget which track...?) and using 'flame switch' on numerous occasions.
pjac67 said:
Finally filled up this afternoon - 26.5 mpg on LPG (must try harder) although
that includes seeing 150 leptons during Welsh hoon (forget which track...?) and using 'flame switch' on numerous occasions.
Is that the black Griff ? I would not know where to start and what to buy . Can anyone build me a kit ? and its got to supply me 345bhp .that includes seeing 150 leptons during Welsh hoon (forget which track...?) and using 'flame switch' on numerous occasions.
If i have the right person yours clicks over to petrol when it can not supply enough LPG ,How does that work ?
SILICONEKID345HP said:
.
If i have the right person yours clicks over to petrol when it can not supply enough LPG ,How does that work ?
My jeep Hemi does the same thing.......if I floor it it flicks over to petrolIf i have the right person yours clicks over to petrol when it can not supply enough LPG ,How does that work ?
when the revs drop again it switches back to gas....
Pooter figures it all out, the only reason I know it's happened is because a light flashes on the gas indicator
Quinny said:
My jeep Hemi does the same thing.......if I floor it it flicks over to petrol
when the revs drop again it switches back to gas....
Pooter figures it all out, the only reason I know it's happened is because a light flashes on the gas indicator
Is there any chance of it running lean in the time it takes to swop over or if it fails ? Does the piggyback adjust timing and fueling off my map ? when the revs drop again it switches back to gas....
Pooter figures it all out, the only reason I know it's happened is because a light flashes on the gas indicator
If i have two maps will it copy which ever one is activated . Why can`t your LPG system cope with full power but Daves gives more power on LPG .
SILICONEKID345HP said:
pjac67 said:
Finally filled up this afternoon - 26.5 mpg on LPG (must try harder) although
that includes seeing 150 leptons during Welsh hoon (forget which track...?) and using 'flame switch' on numerous occasions.
Is that the black Griff ? I would not know where to start and what to buy . Can anyone build me a kit ? and its got to supply me 345bhp .that includes seeing 150 leptons during Welsh hoon (forget which track...?) and using 'flame switch' on numerous occasions.
If i have the right person yours clicks over to petrol when it can not supply enough LPG ,How does that work ?
It won't give you additional power but will pay for itself in as little as 10,000m ie mines already 'paid for' after 2 years....
Mine does flick over automatically but is running well at the moment and stays on LPG even through hard acceleration.
As previously advised get someone with experieince and ideally local to you to fit your kit (any post build 'tweaks' won't be compromised by long trips to anf fro....)
Regards, Paul.
pjac67 said:
My colleague asked me to advise him on a car 3 years ago (he wanted a VW Golf!) and he gave me permission to negotiate the deal - it was a 300C 5.7 Hemi LPG and he loves it 3 years on....
The guy sounded pretty honest ,he said on normal driving you would get equivalent to 30mpg and about 40 on a run .Not bad for a 400bhp plus motor .Hoover. said:
^^^^ I've only got the $l of his 4,7... and I only get 18mpg on fuel.......LPG sounds good, but fitting it to a£1k chariot seems an odd economy
Not to go to far OT on an LPG Chim thread....But I bought my (99) 4.7 Grand Cherokee back in 06 with 50k on the clock and an LPG system (poorly) installed... It was a shame in a way, as it was a top of the range OMVL sequential system, but as I say it'd been fitted by Cowboys...
Anywho, I took it to my LPG guy, and £600 quid later it was all sorted, he basically ripped it all out, and reinstalled it how it should have been done in the first place...
8 years later, and now with almost 140k on the clock, I can tell you I've spent a total of £14624.55 on 24007.50 litres of fuel, and that its averaged 14.20mpg...
The jeep has been used hard, towing 3000+kg trailers, caravans, horseboxes, and offroad use. But in all that time, the LPG system has been faultless, and has cost less than £50 quid in replacement filters...
As for the rest of the Jeep, other than brakes, a radiator, and a gearbox sensor, it's needed nothing other than an oil changes every 10k miles and tyres...
It's starting to show its age, but I would trust it to get me anywhere in complete leather clad air conditioned luxury...
pjac67 said:
Hi Daz - yes my Black Griff on a new 5.4 V8D BV engine. Mine is a 'piggy back' system (keeping the existing full petrol tank and using a 65L LPg tank) which cost c. £1400 whilst at the other extreme Dave's bespoke system probably cost c. double??
It won't give you additional power but will pay for itself in as little as 10,000m ie mines already 'paid for' after 2 years....
Mine does flick over automatically but is running well at the moment and stays on LPG even through hard acceleration.
As previously advised get someone with experieince and ideally local to you to fit your kit (any post build 'tweaks' won't be compromised by long trips to anf fro....)
Regards, Paul.
Thanks what kit do you have ? and do you know what size injectors were used ? What equivalent mpg are you getting .Is the tank bolted down cheersIt won't give you additional power but will pay for itself in as little as 10,000m ie mines already 'paid for' after 2 years....
Mine does flick over automatically but is running well at the moment and stays on LPG even through hard acceleration.
As previously advised get someone with experieince and ideally local to you to fit your kit (any post build 'tweaks' won't be compromised by long trips to anf fro....)
Regards, Paul.
Hi Daz - you asked me nearly 2 years ago (the system could have paid for itself since then!) - my email to you on 20/1/13:
"Hi Daz - yes, Dom runs Avon Autogas, a small garage/installer in Bristol
(linky in the thread direct to the OMVL Dream system on his website giving all the info.).
Whilst I am happy to recommend him I would say to use someone local to you (I had three visits in total to get the set up right....)."
I bow to Dave for info. re best injectors etc
My tank isn't bolted to the chassis but strapped/bolted to the bottom of the boot tub.
MPG equiv. is 50+ eg 53 on the last tank...
"Hi Daz - yes, Dom runs Avon Autogas, a small garage/installer in Bristol
(linky in the thread direct to the OMVL Dream system on his website giving all the info.).
Whilst I am happy to recommend him I would say to use someone local to you (I had three visits in total to get the set up right....)."
I bow to Dave for info. re best injectors etc
My tank isn't bolted to the chassis but strapped/bolted to the bottom of the boot tub.
MPG equiv. is 50+ eg 53 on the last tank...
Edited by pjac67 on Wednesday 17th December 22:17
ChimpOnGas said:
That's rubbish Daz, if you really wanted to discuss that you wouldn't have chosen an LPG post to do it.
Your point was as clear as was your intention.
What happened after that was you got shot down in flames by three experienced LPG users.
As said above, get on the gas Daz.
We all know you want to
Can you build me a kit ,I`m thinking about it .Do you still have those injectors ? Your point was as clear as was your intention.
What happened after that was you got shot down in flames by three experienced LPG users.
As said above, get on the gas Daz.
We all know you want to
The only thing what puts me off is a untidy engine bay ,I would want braided pipes and well made brackets .
Its got to look neat .How much wiring is involved to connect to the Emerald ?
There is a company local but they did the meagasquirt installation which was a disaster .
Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Saturday 20th December 20:32
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Can you build me a kit ,I`m thinking about it .Do you still have those injectors ?
The only thing what puts me off is a untidy engine bay ,I would want braided pipes and well made brackets .
Its got to look neat .How much wiring is involved to connect to the Emerald ?
There is a company local but they did the meagasquirt installation which was a disaster .
It's easier than you think Daz.The only thing what puts me off is a untidy engine bay ,I would want braided pipes and well made brackets .
Its got to look neat .How much wiring is involved to connect to the Emerald ?
There is a company local but they did the meagasquirt installation which was a disaster .
Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Saturday 20th December 20:32
1. You need someone to build you an LPG tank mounting frame that bolts to the rear of the chassis (body mounting points)
2. Have a fabricator build you a 4 gallon ally petrol tank that sits on top of the LPG cylinders plus two 2 litre low boot mounted swirl pots to stop fuel starvation on hard cornering
3. Buy two LPG tanks, one four hole 42 litre & one smaller single hole 30 litre that feeds the bigger bottom tank which is the main supply point
4. Buy a decent vaporiser that can cope with 345hp (KME make a good one)
5. Because LPG has a massively higher volume than petrol for the same energy output the only kind of injectors than can flow enough of the stuff are the Peak & Hold variety, normal saturated petrol injectors would never flow enough so you'll need to buy 8 LPG injectors that in your case can cope with 43hp per cylinder (Hana Golds are perfect)
6. You then need to drill the inlet manifold close to the petrol injectors to plumb in the injector pipes
7. Buy some other bits & bobs to include, solenoid, valve body, sender, assorted pipes, clips & fittings
8. If you're sticking with your Emerald system you'll need map one for petrol but retain map 2 exclusively for LPG
9. Those LPG Peak & Hold injectors require special Peak & Hold injector drivers, the ones inside your Emerald ECU that fire your saturated petrol injectors are no good at all for this. The best place to find Peak & Hold injector drivers is inside an LPG piggyback ECU which can be bought cheaply
10. Run your Emerald map 2 injector duration signals through the piggyback but don't try and twist them using the LPG ECU software, map using the Emerald software. Remember you are only using the piggyback LPG ECU for its Peak & Hold injector drivers and nothing else
11. Make sure you also change the ignition advance characteristics on map 2 too to take full advantage of the 110ron LPG fuel
Paul Jackson (pjac67) is running his Griff on an Emerald, bizarrely his LPG fitter chose to use the LPG piggyback ECU to twist the petrol map (map 1) which also must mean its still running the petrol ignition map as a piggyback has no influence on ignition.
This is a real cockeyed way of doing things and completely misses the biggest trick in the LPG book of tuning which is to map the ignition for 110 Ron LPG. A correctly configured LPG ignition map will look completely different to a petrol ignition map because chemically it's a completely different fuel that burns in a very different way.
From what I understand map 2 on Paul's setup is just another petrol map for vanity (read inefficient) pops & bangs which is nuts when he could use it to get the very best fuelling & ignition for LPG. It also seems that his LPG guy can't map the Emerald and his Emerald mapper doesn't want to work with the LPG piggyback ECU software which means Paul must visit two mappers each working on one fuel type separately.
This must be both costly and very frustrating as it represents a completely unintegrated & illogical approach, ironically this could all be resolved by passing his map 2 map directly through the Peak & Hold injector drivers inside the LPG piggyback ECU without needing to even open the piggyback software.
As it stands Emerald map 1 is a petrol map that the LPG fitter then twists using the LPG piggyback ECU software in an attempt to get the fuelling right on LPG, I can only assume he doesn't simply use the excellent & well respected Emerald software to build a proper LPG map on map 2 because he doesn't understand how to map an Emerald. Either that or he's so stuck on LPG piggybacks he can't see beyond the end of his nose.
Anyone that understands and can map the Emerald could build a decent LPG fuelling map 2, and if they spent an hour or so understanding the way LPG burns they could build a good LPG ignition map too. All this on that Emerald map 2 that's just waiting to be used, the switch for map 2 to also then turn off the petrol injectors and energise the LPG solenoid as you switch maps. Hey presto you've got perfect fuelling & ignition for the both fuels at a flick of a switch.
Like I say, if you have an after market ECU like an Emerald that offers two maps, all you actually need the LPG piggyback ECU for is the Peak & Hold injector drivers hidden inside it. The only difference between such a system & my Canems Dual Fuel ECU therefore is just that the Canems ECU houses both the saturated petrol injector drivers and the Peak & Hold injector drivers in one box.
Oh and some other clever stuff that we are currently working on to keep the Canems Dual Fuel ECU two or three steps ahead of the game
Good luck with it Daz, talk to Joolz or the boys at Lloyd Specialist Developments about using map 2 through the Peak & Hold injector drivers inside a piggyback and you could have an excellent system, just mate sure you don't try and map it using the LPG piggyback software as that would be completely illogical and to miss out of the biggest advantage of your Emerald.....
Which is, that it's got two unique maps for fuel & ignition that can be used for the two unique & very different fuels.
The only reason piggybacks exist is because OEM engine management systems don't offer switchable maps on the fly, fact!
And remember, a piggyback does nothing with the ignition
ChimpOnGas said:
It's easier than you think Daz.
1. You need someone to build you an LPG tank mounting frame that bolts to the rear of the chassis (body mounting points)
2. Have a fabricator build you a 4 gallon ally petrol tank that sits on top of the LPG cylinders plus two 2 litre low boot mounted swirl pots to stop fuel starvation on hard cornering
3. Buy two LPG tanks, one four hole 42 litre & one smaller single hole 30 litre that feeds the bigger bottom tank which is the main supply point
4. Buy a decent vaporiser that can cope with 345hp (KME make a good one)
5. Because LPG has a massively higher volume than petrol for the same energy output the only kind of injectors than can flow enough of the stuff are the Peak & Hold variety, normal saturated petrol injectors would never flow enough so you'll need to buy 8 LPG injectors that in your case can cope with 43hp per cylinder (Hana Golds are perfect)
6. You then need to drill the inlet manifold close to the petrol injectors to plumb in the injector pipes
7. Buy some other bits & bobs to include, solenoid, valve body, sender, assorted pipes, clips & fittings
8. If you're sticking with your Emerald system you'll need map one for petrol but retain map 2 exclusively for LPG
9. Those LPG Peak & Hold injectors require special Peak & Hold injector drivers, the ones inside your Emerald ECU that fire your saturated petrol injectors are no good at all for this. The best place to find Peak & Hold injector drivers is inside an LPG piggyback ECU which can be bought cheaply
10. Run your Emerald map 2 injector duration signals through the piggyback but don't try and twist them using the LPG ECU software, map using the Emerald software. Remember you are only using the piggyback LPG ECU for its Peak & Hold injector drivers and nothing else
11. Make sure you also change the ignition advance characteristics on map 2 too to take full advantage of the 110ron LPG fuel
Paul Jackson (pjac67) is running his Griff on an Emerald, bizarrely his LPG fitter chose to use the LPG piggyback ECU to twist the petrol map (map 1) which also must mean its still running the petrol ignition map as a piggyback has no influence on ignition.
This is a real cockeyed way of doing things and completely misses the biggest trick in the LPG book of tuning which is to map the ignition for 110 Ron LPG. A correctly configured LPG ignition map will look completely different to a petrol ignition map because chemically it's a completely different fuel that burns in a very different way.
From what I understand map 2 on Paul's setup is just another petrol map for vanity (read inefficient) pops & bangs which is nuts when he could use it to get the very best fuelling & ignition for LPG. It also seems that his LPG guy can't map the Emerald and his Emerald mapper doesn't want to work with the LPG piggyback ECU software which means Paul must visit two mappers each working on one fuel type separately.
This must be both costly and very frustrating as it represents a completely unintegrated & illogical approach, ironically this could all be resolved by passing his map 2 map directly through the Peak & Hold injector drivers inside the LPG piggyback ECU without needing to even open the piggyback software.
As it stands Emerald map 1 is a petrol map that the LPG fitter then twists using the LPG piggyback ECU software in an attempt to get the fuelling right on LPG, I can only assume he doesn't simply use the excellent & well respected Emerald software to build a proper LPG map on map 2 because he doesn't understand how to map an Emerald. Either that or he's so stuck on LPG piggybacks he can't see beyond the end of his nose.
Anyone that understands and can map the Emerald could build a decent LPG fuelling map 2, and if they spent an hour or so understanding the way LPG burns they could build a good LPG ignition map too. All this on that Emerald map 2 that's just waiting to be used, the switch for map 2 to also then turn off the petrol injectors and energise the LPG solenoid as you switch maps. Hey presto you've got perfect fuelling & ignition for the both fuels at a flick of a switch.
Like I say, if you have an after market ECU like an Emerald that offers two maps, all you actually need the LPG piggyback ECU for is the Peak & Hold injector drivers hidden inside it. The only difference between such a system & my Canems Dual Fuel ECU therefore is just that the Canems ECU houses both the saturated petrol injector drivers and the Peak & Hold injector drivers in one box.
Oh and some other clever stuff that we are currently working on to keep the Canems Dual Fuel ECU two or three steps ahead of the game
Good luck with it Daz, talk to Joolz or the boys at Lloyd Specialist Developments about using map 2 through the Peak & Hold injector drivers inside a piggyback and you could have an excellent system, just mate sure you don't try and map it using the LPG piggyback software as that would be completely illogical and to miss out of the biggest advantage of your Emerald.....
Which is, that it's got two unique maps for fuel & ignition that can be used for the two unique & very different fuels.
The only reason piggybacks exist is because OEM engine management systems don't offer switchable maps on the fly, fact!
And remember, a piggyback does nothing with the ignition
I`m happy with a standard tank bolted down in the back, now i am even more confused .I thought the piggyback read fueling and spark then made calculations to convert to LPG . 1. You need someone to build you an LPG tank mounting frame that bolts to the rear of the chassis (body mounting points)
2. Have a fabricator build you a 4 gallon ally petrol tank that sits on top of the LPG cylinders plus two 2 litre low boot mounted swirl pots to stop fuel starvation on hard cornering
3. Buy two LPG tanks, one four hole 42 litre & one smaller single hole 30 litre that feeds the bigger bottom tank which is the main supply point
4. Buy a decent vaporiser that can cope with 345hp (KME make a good one)
5. Because LPG has a massively higher volume than petrol for the same energy output the only kind of injectors than can flow enough of the stuff are the Peak & Hold variety, normal saturated petrol injectors would never flow enough so you'll need to buy 8 LPG injectors that in your case can cope with 43hp per cylinder (Hana Golds are perfect)
6. You then need to drill the inlet manifold close to the petrol injectors to plumb in the injector pipes
7. Buy some other bits & bobs to include, solenoid, valve body, sender, assorted pipes, clips & fittings
8. If you're sticking with your Emerald system you'll need map one for petrol but retain map 2 exclusively for LPG
9. Those LPG Peak & Hold injectors require special Peak & Hold injector drivers, the ones inside your Emerald ECU that fire your saturated petrol injectors are no good at all for this. The best place to find Peak & Hold injector drivers is inside an LPG piggyback ECU which can be bought cheaply
10. Run your Emerald map 2 injector duration signals through the piggyback but don't try and twist them using the LPG ECU software, map using the Emerald software. Remember you are only using the piggyback LPG ECU for its Peak & Hold injector drivers and nothing else
11. Make sure you also change the ignition advance characteristics on map 2 too to take full advantage of the 110ron LPG fuel
Paul Jackson (pjac67) is running his Griff on an Emerald, bizarrely his LPG fitter chose to use the LPG piggyback ECU to twist the petrol map (map 1) which also must mean its still running the petrol ignition map as a piggyback has no influence on ignition.
This is a real cockeyed way of doing things and completely misses the biggest trick in the LPG book of tuning which is to map the ignition for 110 Ron LPG. A correctly configured LPG ignition map will look completely different to a petrol ignition map because chemically it's a completely different fuel that burns in a very different way.
From what I understand map 2 on Paul's setup is just another petrol map for vanity (read inefficient) pops & bangs which is nuts when he could use it to get the very best fuelling & ignition for LPG. It also seems that his LPG guy can't map the Emerald and his Emerald mapper doesn't want to work with the LPG piggyback ECU software which means Paul must visit two mappers each working on one fuel type separately.
This must be both costly and very frustrating as it represents a completely unintegrated & illogical approach, ironically this could all be resolved by passing his map 2 map directly through the Peak & Hold injector drivers inside the LPG piggyback ECU without needing to even open the piggyback software.
As it stands Emerald map 1 is a petrol map that the LPG fitter then twists using the LPG piggyback ECU software in an attempt to get the fuelling right on LPG, I can only assume he doesn't simply use the excellent & well respected Emerald software to build a proper LPG map on map 2 because he doesn't understand how to map an Emerald. Either that or he's so stuck on LPG piggybacks he can't see beyond the end of his nose.
Anyone that understands and can map the Emerald could build a decent LPG fuelling map 2, and if they spent an hour or so understanding the way LPG burns they could build a good LPG ignition map too. All this on that Emerald map 2 that's just waiting to be used, the switch for map 2 to also then turn off the petrol injectors and energise the LPG solenoid as you switch maps. Hey presto you've got perfect fuelling & ignition for the both fuels at a flick of a switch.
Like I say, if you have an after market ECU like an Emerald that offers two maps, all you actually need the LPG piggyback ECU for is the Peak & Hold injector drivers hidden inside it. The only difference between such a system & my Canems Dual Fuel ECU therefore is just that the Canems ECU houses both the saturated petrol injector drivers and the Peak & Hold injector drivers in one box.
Oh and some other clever stuff that we are currently working on to keep the Canems Dual Fuel ECU two or three steps ahead of the game
Good luck with it Daz, talk to Joolz or the boys at Lloyd Specialist Developments about using map 2 through the Peak & Hold injector drivers inside a piggyback and you could have an excellent system, just mate sure you don't try and map it using the LPG piggyback software as that would be completely illogical and to miss out of the biggest advantage of your Emerald.....
Which is, that it's got two unique maps for fuel & ignition that can be used for the two unique & very different fuels.
The only reason piggybacks exist is because OEM engine management systems don't offer switchable maps on the fly, fact!
And remember, a piggyback does nothing with the ignition
I have three maps 1 Full power 2 full power with pops and bangs and 3 a slightly leaned out map .
I thought i could have another switch to switch over to LPG then let the LPG copy which ever map i choose.
Did i get that completely wrong ?. ..
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