Nelson Mandela
Discussion
Latest reports suggest he really isn't very well at all.
He's been readmitted to hospital for a recurring lung infection, and at the ripe old age of 94 he's certainly had a good run, but I suspect he's not much time left.
Obama has sent well wishes but it could almost read like an obituary.
The article below suggests SA will (completely) fall to pieces when Madiba eventually shuffles off this mortal coil.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Qunu-hopes-...
How will the world react when he has passed, and do we share the doom mongering view that he is still holding the country together?
He's been readmitted to hospital for a recurring lung infection, and at the ripe old age of 94 he's certainly had a good run, but I suspect he's not much time left.
Obama has sent well wishes but it could almost read like an obituary.
The article below suggests SA will (completely) fall to pieces when Madiba eventually shuffles off this mortal coil.
http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Qunu-hopes-...
How will the world react when he has passed, and do we share the doom mongering view that he is still holding the country together?
When I was working in SA this was a regular talking point. What will happen when Mandela shuffles off this mortal coil?
He is many things to many people, he brought stability to SA that would not have occurred had somebody else been at the forefront of the changes.
People are worried that when he dies there will be bloodshed and the very worst kind of trouble. I hope this doesn't happen, but who knows? It is country ravaged by resentment on many sides, massive corruption and high rates of violent crime.
I loved SA, if only the people in charge could realise what an asset they actually have and try and reduce the crime and corruption. It would be a fantastic country.
He is many things to many people, he brought stability to SA that would not have occurred had somebody else been at the forefront of the changes.
People are worried that when he dies there will be bloodshed and the very worst kind of trouble. I hope this doesn't happen, but who knows? It is country ravaged by resentment on many sides, massive corruption and high rates of violent crime.
I loved SA, if only the people in charge could realise what an asset they actually have and try and reduce the crime and corruption. It would be a fantastic country.
If the country is going to fall to pieces then it will do so regardless of whether Mandela is still alive or not. Other than a symbolic one, does he really have much of an influence today?
Similar things were said about Gandhi yet when he died life went on just as it was when he was alive.
Similar things were said about Gandhi yet when he died life went on just as it was when he was alive.
History is littered with examples of both extremes.
As has been pointed out already, India didn't fall into chaos when Gandhi died, yet Yugoslavia became a major disaster area after Tito popped his clogs.
I think the question that needs asking is whether Mandela is keeping warring factions away from each other's throats? I think the answer to that is in the negative. He left the presidency in 1999 and there has therefore been plenty of time for something to kick off. And in my view, if something was going to kick off post-1999, it could have kicked off by now whether Mandela was alive or not.
That is not of course to say that something won't happen in the future, but I personally doubt that his being around makes any difference in this context.
As has been pointed out already, India didn't fall into chaos when Gandhi died, yet Yugoslavia became a major disaster area after Tito popped his clogs.
I think the question that needs asking is whether Mandela is keeping warring factions away from each other's throats? I think the answer to that is in the negative. He left the presidency in 1999 and there has therefore been plenty of time for something to kick off. And in my view, if something was going to kick off post-1999, it could have kicked off by now whether Mandela was alive or not.
That is not of course to say that something won't happen in the future, but I personally doubt that his being around makes any difference in this context.
supersingle said:
The #### hit the fan some time ago judging by the number of expats living in England. Some of their stories make your toes curl.
I must be careful what I say because I don't want to upset any expats who post on here (especially the one who lives just up the road from me 
), but I have sensed a fairly large segment of expat opinion that could never really get to grips with the end of Aparthied. Life was so much easier when the majority of the population knew its place and kept its head down (or had its head kept down, to look at it from a slightly different angle)There is an old saying "the defeated army counts each enemy twice." I trust you get my drift
supersingle said:
I felt very uncomfortable when I was there on holiday. The place is a powderkeg.
Where did you go on holiday? Guguletu? I can't say that I have ever sensed a "powder keg" anywhere that I have been in the last 10 years. True, there are parts of SA that you are better of not going, but you could say that about most of the world's major cities.Care to give us some more information?
I was diving out there. Cape Town felt ok but we also stayed near Durban which just felt plain edgy.
The guesthouse we stayed in was broken into (despite 10' fences) the previous week and a room ransacked. We had to be chaperoned everywhere, the whole place felt wrong.
It's only my limited experience but the place has major problems: big wealth divide, racial tension, and a low value to life. It feels as though the place is barely kept in order.
I've been all over the world and most places feel like they keep themselves in order, i.e if the police went on strike things would go on more or less as normal. I didn't get that impression in SA.
I wouldn't go back.
The guesthouse we stayed in was broken into (despite 10' fences) the previous week and a room ransacked. We had to be chaperoned everywhere, the whole place felt wrong.
It's only my limited experience but the place has major problems: big wealth divide, racial tension, and a low value to life. It feels as though the place is barely kept in order.
I've been all over the world and most places feel like they keep themselves in order, i.e if the police went on strike things would go on more or less as normal. I didn't get that impression in SA.
I wouldn't go back.
Ah -making more sense now. Lets have a look at some of the points you raise:
There are UK BiB who post on here who will tell you stories of the little market town in the UK where a local scroat was sent down for burgulary, and the break-in rate in that town fell by 80% - he was doing most of it. It is just the same in South Africa - there are certainly some nasty people about who you would do well to keep out of the way of, but the vast majority of the population just get on with their lives. That said, things are a little different in SA - for example, in the UK a few scrap metal thieves might go out late at night and nick some cable from the side of a railway line - in SA they're more likely to take a flatbed along with a couple of lookouts with AK47s to make sure they're not disturbed.
Your chances of being the victim of crime in SA are probably higher than in the UK, but we are still talking about "chance" - to think that every house in the place is being ransacked twice a week, as some might have you believe, is not the daily reality of the situation.
I hadn't realised it before, but most of my friends and SWMBO's family in SA tend to live in quite modest circumstances by comparison with many other whites. In this gated complex, the house we were staying in was at the lower, cheaper end of the market, but there were houses in that complex that would have put the average UK stately home to shame - bleedin' palaces by any other name.
Yet, outside the gates and 400 yards down the road there was a set of traffic lights (or robots, if we're talking in South African ) where people were begging for food or money or both. And you will find that sort of thing all over the country. Little wonder, then, that Julius Malema and his friends have some degree of support.
supersingle said:
I was diving out there. Cape Town felt ok but we also stayed near Durban which just felt plain edgy.
The guesthouse we stayed in was broken into (despite 10' fences) the previous week and a room ransacked.
The guesthouse we stayed in was broken into (despite 10' fences) the previous week and a room ransacked.
There are UK BiB who post on here who will tell you stories of the little market town in the UK where a local scroat was sent down for burgulary, and the break-in rate in that town fell by 80% - he was doing most of it. It is just the same in South Africa - there are certainly some nasty people about who you would do well to keep out of the way of, but the vast majority of the population just get on with their lives. That said, things are a little different in SA - for example, in the UK a few scrap metal thieves might go out late at night and nick some cable from the side of a railway line - in SA they're more likely to take a flatbed along with a couple of lookouts with AK47s to make sure they're not disturbed.
Your chances of being the victim of crime in SA are probably higher than in the UK, but we are still talking about "chance" - to think that every house in the place is being ransacked twice a week, as some might have you believe, is not the daily reality of the situation.
supersingle said:
We had to be chaperoned everywhere, the whole place felt wrong.
Companies who provide tourist facilities the world over don't like the bad publicity that comes with one of their punters getting attacked or topped whilst in their care. Even if the true likelihood of anybody getting attacked or topped is quite low, it is still best to be on the safe side supersingle said:
It's only my limited experience but the place has major problems: big wealth divide, racial tension, and a low value to life. It feels as though the place is barely kept in order.
The wealth divide is a major problem. When I was in Cape Town during the winter I had to go to Johannesburg for 4 days with SWMBO to join in with the family's New Year festivities. We were given a friend of her sister's house to stay in, in one of those gated residential estates that are very popular over there. To me this was an eye opener.I hadn't realised it before, but most of my friends and SWMBO's family in SA tend to live in quite modest circumstances by comparison with many other whites. In this gated complex, the house we were staying in was at the lower, cheaper end of the market, but there were houses in that complex that would have put the average UK stately home to shame - bleedin' palaces by any other name.
Yet, outside the gates and 400 yards down the road there was a set of traffic lights (or robots, if we're talking in South African
) where people were begging for food or money or both. And you will find that sort of thing all over the country. Little wonder, then, that Julius Malema and his friends have some degree of support.supersingle said:
I wouldn't go back.
You might be missing out When he does die, it will be the largest gathering of the 'great and the good' for a long time.
Every one from Bush to Blair, Obama to Osama (well his rotting head anyway) will want to be seen there as Mandela represents all things to all people. In every real sense of the word, it will be a total security nightmare.
Every one from Bush to Blair, Obama to Osama (well his rotting head anyway) will want to be seen there as Mandela represents all things to all people. In every real sense of the word, it will be a total security nightmare.
drivin_me_nuts said:
When he does die, it will be the largest gathering of the 'great and the good' for a long time.
Every one from Bush to Blair, Obama to Osama (well his rotting head anyway) will want to be seen there as Mandela represents all things to all people. In every real sense of the word, it will be a total security nightmare.
Maybe Sir Paul McCartney will sing a song.Every one from Bush to Blair, Obama to Osama (well his rotting head anyway) will want to be seen there as Mandela represents all things to all people. In every real sense of the word, it will be a total security nightmare.
supersingle said:
I was diving out there. Cape Town felt ok but we also stayed near Durban which just felt plain edgy.
The guesthouse we stayed in was broken into (despite 10' fences) the previous week and a room ransacked. We had to be chaperoned everywhere, the whole place felt wrong.
It's only my limited experience but the place has major problems: big wealth divide, racial tension, and a low value to life. It feels as though the place is barely kept in order.
I've been all over the world and most places feel like they keep themselves in order, i.e if the police went on strike things would go on more or less as normal. I didn't get that impression in SA.
I wouldn't go back.
I'm with supersingle on this. I was in Durban on business last year, and the way the whole place felt and looked, and the way it was described by my South African hosts, was just edgy and uncomfortable.The guesthouse we stayed in was broken into (despite 10' fences) the previous week and a room ransacked. We had to be chaperoned everywhere, the whole place felt wrong.
It's only my limited experience but the place has major problems: big wealth divide, racial tension, and a low value to life. It feels as though the place is barely kept in order.
I've been all over the world and most places feel like they keep themselves in order, i.e if the police went on strike things would go on more or less as normal. I didn't get that impression in SA.
I wouldn't go back.
I've been to around 60 countries on business and leisure, including other parts of Africa, and most I'd happily go back to. I have no desire to go to SA again.
Article in The Guardian is nothing extraordinary, but the comments section certainly gives food for thought.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/0...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/0...
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