Move from Management Accounting to Quantity Surveying

[lewisf182]

Hi, will try make this as brief as possible.

I'm 23, 2.1 in Business & Accounting, 1 years placement experience as finance accountant, 8 months as assistant management accountant. Choice to go to University to study accounting was rushed and not fully thought through.

so, here it goes.....
I Have been working in a temporary role in the NHS as an Assistant management accountant, and have come to the conclusion I hate accounting. Nothing sticks in my head and I have zero interest in it which is affecting my productivity and I know will impact upon my future career progression.

Now, I stumbled across quantity surveyor roles when looking for different career choices I could make, and the job descriptions really appealed to me. They seemed to be a lot of good elements taken from my job as an assistant management accountant mixed with property related elements which is a real passion of mine and the chance to get out the office every now and again which I love the thought of and is a reason im jelous of my brothers job as a chartered surveyor( I know I know, why didnt I just study QS in the first place).

So, has anybody experienced both roles or has any tips to share? how similar are the roles? I've been looking for trainee QS roles and am happy to take the pay decrease but they seem to be looking for school leavers rather than graduates, and graduate QS schemes looking for QS graduates.... so im stuck in the middle ground and not sure where to go next? A masters in QS is possible but at £8k im not sure is a wise choice as one thing I have learned is that experience beats qualifications every time in the current market.

Thanks for any advice

[lewisf182]

nobody?

[Shirt587]

Sure you don't hate the NHS?

My exposure to public sector accounting has been brief but I hated every minute of it (disclosure - I work in practice, currently Big4, have been smaller, done a lot of random jobs including public sector local council/trusts/education) because there was no incentive to actually do anything. If you overspent it was expected, if you underspent it meant less money next year, there was no way of proving whether you were actually doing anything valued or appreciated, and the apathy levels were absolutely horrifying.

If nothing else, I would suggest trying somewhere else for accounting first, you'd probably find it more fun.

If you really want to be a QS (and God knows I've had days where it appeals to me, or just jack it all and become a brickie!) I would find a local bunch who are recruiting school leavers and go have a chat. They'll be reluctant to take you to start with because you'll have already developed bad habits , but sell yourself as the opportunity for them to get a graduate with some real-world experience at school-leaver wages.

Don't go doing a masters - if you discover at the end of it that you hate QS/construction work too, you're properly stuffed and out of pocket to boot It'll also take another year or so during which the construction market may well shift again and leave you jobless...

[crazy about cars]

Both are pretty different disciplines - surprised you didn't like MA when you have a 2.1 Shame though as with a few more years experience you'll be earning 40K+ easily.

[anonymous-user]

They are very similar, I am FCMA left accounting 30 years ago, because I found I was working as a Cost Engineer, for a Oil Company Contractor, now Contract Advisor to a Fortune 100 Oil Company. Althought I do have an MBA, many of the anitical skills in Accounting transfer to QS work.
PM me if you want to know more and I'll try to help you.

[Mattt]

You should be able to do a day release post Graduate diploma in QS, that will get you onto the RICS pathway.

I suppose it's not a bad job all in, and the rewards are there if you're prepared to sacrifice a 'normal' life.

I'm in my late 20's, and earn x figures - and have worked in many countries around the world.

Edited by Mattt on Tuesday 7th May 22:25

[lewisf182]

It's good to hear they are fairly similar roles as after my research that is what it seemed like on the surface, but was unsure of the reality of the roles.

A day release would most likely be possible but like I said, I still wouldn't have experience and it would take a long time to gain the qualification. Another reason that doesn't appeal would be all the time I'd be thinking I should just complete my CIMA first and get it out of the way, before going back to study, that way I always have a few years accounting experience and fully CIMA qualified to fall back on.

Its strange as I'm still judged as young, but to me it feels like time is running out to make a career change, and I would hate to be out of a job for an extended period of time as it means i'll have to wait even longer to buy my dream car

You've given me much food for thought and I'll see where to go from here, as of now just looking for trainee QS roles and assistant QS roles which I think I could get. If nothing comes of this after a while i'll have to look at other avenues.

[Tannedbaldhead]

lewisf182 said:

It's good to hear they are fairly similar roles as after my research that is what it seemed like on the surface, but was unsure of the reality of the roles.

I still wouldn't have experience and it would take a long time to gain the qualification. Its strange as I'm still judged as young, but to me it feels like time is running out to make a career change, and I would hate to be out of a job for an extended period of time as it means i'll have to wait even longer to buy my dream car

as of now just looking for trainee QS roles and assistant QS roles which I think I could get. .

There are elements of accountancy that will come in usefull when working as a QS but there are masses more you would need to know; knowledge of build technology, specialised procurement routes, contracts, contract ducuments and health & safety are all a musts.

You have to know your way round a building, round drawings, know your way round a site, know how build professionals interact with one another, be able to prepare a bill of quantities, know your way round JCT, NEC and Framework contracts, know how to deal with compensation events and variations, be able to understand complex construction drawings, understand the significance of contract documents, work on a site safely and be able to supervise others so they can do so and that's me just getting started.

Basically what I'm saying is you'd have a lot and I mean a LOT to learn before you were attractive to a construction company. Your biggest problem at the moment is the poor state of the industry. Housebuilding is on it's knees, retail and office developement has stopped, and the give govt funded civil contracts, social house building, and social housing regeneration programs and general reactive repairs have all been clobbered by govt cutbacks. There are a lot of graduate QSs out there lots with work experience chasing every job. You would be competing with these guys and girls and, trust me, it wouldn't be easy.

[lewisf182]

Tannedbaldhead said:

There are elements of accountancy that will come in usefull when working as a QS but there are masses more you would need to know; knowledge of build technology, specialised procurement routes, contracts, contract ducuments and health & safety are all a musts.

You have to know your way round a building, round drawings, know your way round a site, know how build professionals interact with one another, be able to prepare a bill of quantities, know your way round JCT, NEC and Framework contracts, know how to deal with compensation events and variations, be able to understand complex construction drawings, understand the significance of contract documents, work on a site safely and be able to supervise others so they can do so and that's me just getting started.

Basically what I'm saying is you'd have a lot and I mean a LOT to learn before you were attractive to a construction company. Your biggest problem at the moment is the poor state of the industry. Housebuilding is on it's knees, retail and office developement has stopped, and the give govt funded civil contracts, social house building, and social housing regeneration programs and general reactive repairs have all been clobbered by govt cutbacks. There are a lot of graduate QSs out there lots with work experience chasing every job. You would be competing with these guys and girls and, trust me, it wouldn't be easy.

Great advice and insight, thank you. Much of the assistant QS roles i've seen don't mention what you have though and by the sounds of the job description much of it is similar to what I do now with regards invoicing, supplier management and so on so I think this is where i'd like to start and study at the same time.

In the meantime i'm keeping an eye out for relevant jobs and i'll keep you all updated how I get on

[Tannedbaldhead]

lewisf182 said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

There are elements of accountancy that will come in usefull when working as a QS but there are masses more you would need to know; knowledge of build technology, specialised procurement routes, contracts, contract ducuments and health & safety are all a musts.

You have to know your way round a building, round drawings, know your way round a site, know how build professionals interact with one another, be able to prepare a bill of quantities, know your way round JCT, NEC and Framework contracts, know how to deal with compensation events and variations, be able to understand complex construction drawings, understand the significance of contract documents, work on a site safely and be able to supervise others so they can do so and that's me just getting started.

Basically what I'm saying is you'd have a lot and I mean a LOT to learn before you were attractive to a construction company. Your biggest problem at the moment is the poor state of the industry. Housebuilding is on it's knees, retail and office developement has stopped, and the give govt funded civil contracts, social house building, and social housing regeneration programs and general reactive repairs have all been clobbered by govt cutbacks. There are a lot of graduate QSs out there lots with work experience chasing every job. You would be competing with these guys and girls and, trust me, it wouldn't be easy.

Great advice and insight, thank you. Much of the assistant QS roles i've seen don't mention what you have though and by the sounds of the job description much of it is similar to what I do now with regards invoicing, supplier management and so on so I think this is where i'd like to start and study at the same time.

In the meantime i'm keeping an eye out for relevant jobs and i'll keep you all updated how I get on

No chance of getting in at assistant level. You'd need to start as a trainee.

A big problem with build professional positions is that it's very much a buyers' (employers') market. They aren't looking for transferable skills when they can get exactly what they are looking for. The experience to the position you apply for at the moment has to be absolute. I'm hearing of guys with years of experience being knocked back because they're background has been in building when the job is in civils, private sector rather than public or vice versa, contract experience is JCT rather than NEC, concrete frames rather than structural steel.

As staff levels have been cut the line management structure of a Commercial Manager supported by Senior Surveyors, then Assistant Surveyors and Juniors has been stripped bare. What we have now is a Commercial manager supported by an Assistant Surveyor and that's it. The commercial manager is too busy to support, mentor or train his assistant thus needs someone who can get his arse on a seat on day one, open up his laptop and work unsupervised from day one.

Am really sorry if I'm sounding pessimistic but you need to be aware that if you really want to be a QS (a good career and I'm sure with a 2:1 in Accountancy you have the brains and application do well at it) you have to be realistic and accept you're going to have to take some big steps backwards in order to take steps forwards.

[lewisf182]

Tannedbaldhead said:

No chance of getting in at assistant level. You'd need to start as a trainee.

A big problem with build professional positions is that it's very much a buyers' (employers') market. They aren't looking for transferable skills when they can get exactly what they are looking for. The experience to the position you apply for at the moment has to be absolute. I'm hearing of guys with years of experience being knocked back because they're background has been in building when the job is in civils, private sector rather than public or vice versa, contract experience is JCT rather than NEC, concrete frames rather than structural steel.

As staff levels have been cut the line management structure of a Commercial Manager supported by Senior Surveyors, then Assistant Surveyors and Juniors has been stripped bare. What we have now is a Commercial manager supported by an Assistant Surveyor and that's it. The commercial manager is too busy to support, mentor or train his assistant thus needs someone who can get his arse on a seat on day one, open up his laptop and work unsupervised from day one.

Am really sorry if I'm sounding pessimistic but you need to be aware that if you really want to be a QS (a good career and I'm sure with a 2:1 in Accountancy you have the brains and application do well at it) you have to be realistic and accept you're going to have to take some big steps backwards in order to take steps forwards.

I'm going to apply for Assistant QS roles for pure speculation really to see how far I get with them, If i manage to gain an interview brilliant, if not then no problem. I am looking for and applying to Trainee QS roles but as I said in my first post these seem to be geared towards school leavers/those without qualifications. I dont mind taking a pay cut so I just need to be given a chance in a trainee position really so like all jobs I'll just have to keep applying until I manage to get an interview!

Thanks for the advice though, I realise the building industry is on its knees still which will make things even harder. I'm in a job that I dont absolutely hate so theres no real rush I just know that my current career is not something I want to be doing for the next 40 years

[Tannedbaldhead]

lewisf182 said:

I'm going to apply for Assistant QS roles for pure speculation really to see how far I get with them, If i manage to gain an interview brilliant, if not then no problem.

How goes?

[lewisf182]

Havn't heard anything back really.

Had one email back from a recruitment consultant who was adveritisng a job saying although I had many relevant skills I was lacking some more job specific skills. Not sure if this was a generic email or specifically tailored for my application. Will keep plodding on anyway and let you know.

Wondering whether a switch away from the NHS may be the better option as the guy further up mentioned so have opened myself up to the mercy of recruitment agencies again looking for an assistant management accounts role

[Tannedbaldhead]

lewisf182 said:

Wondering whether a switch away from the NHS may be the better option as the guy further up mentioned so have opened myself up to the mercy of recruitment agencies again looking for an assistant management accounts role

Careful. You're in a position gaining good postgrad experience. Don't blow it. Bide your time and take every course, on going CPD, and further professional qualification they offer.
You'll find large private sector companies every bit as procedure oriented and frustrating as working in the public sector and moving for moving's sake may see you suffering from a nasty case of "same st, different place" syndrome.

[HannsG]

I am CIMA qualified - Got a 2:2 and work for a Tier 1 Investment Bank as a Business Partner.

Trust me mate, there is a lot more out there outside the public sector! I have not seen a Profit Loss for over a year. I am in the change management/Project side of things....

[Tannedbaldhead]

HannsG said:

I am CIMA qualified - Got a 2:2 and work for a Tier 1 Investment Bank as a Business Partner.

Trust me mate, there is a lot more out there outside the public sector! I have not seen a Profit Loss for over a year. I am in the change management/Project side of things....

And if the OP thinks a Trade, Profit and Loss is a heartbreaker wait till he sees an SMM7 bill of quantities or has to trawl through an NEC contract to see if newly planted shrubs in a landscaped car cark dying due to exceptionally hot weather constitutes a compensation event. I'm not saying being a QS a bad job, I love it, but like all jobs it has its ups and downs. The same would apply moving from the public to private sectors.

[anonymous-user]

What kind of QS do you want to be? Do you want to become a PQS or Cost Manager working for a specialist QS firm or a consultancy or do you want to work client side or for a property/construction contractor?

Some companies will allow you to train on the job while others may not even need for you to become RICS

[sleep envy]

Tannedbaldhead said:

You have to know your way round a building, round drawings, know your way round a site, know how build professionals interact with one another, be able to prepare a bill of quantities, know your way round JCT, NEC and Framework contracts, know how to deal with compensation events and variations, be able to understand complex construction drawings, understand the significance of contract documents, work on a site safely and be able to supervise others so they can do so and that's me just getting started.

Hit the 20th year of my career as a PQS and I've yet to write my first bill of quants, it's unlikely I could even remember how to if I tried. For what it's worth every practice I've worked at has subbed that out but only on the basis that the client has agreed to pay for the additional expense, I've yet to see a set of consultant appointment terms which don't specifically exclude bill writing.

With respect to being site safe every new employee will go on a course regardless how much experience they have, it's to cover the employer's arse. And I'm not sure a grad will be supervising a team either.

Tannedbaldhead said:

No chance of getting in at assistant level. You'd need to start as a trainee.

A big problem with build professional positions is that it's very much a buyers' (employers') market. They aren't looking for transferable skills when they can get exactly what they are looking for. The experience to the position you apply for at the moment has to be absolute. I'm hearing of guys with years of experience being knocked back because they're background has been in building when the job is in civils, private sector rather than public or vice versa, contract experience is JCT rather than NEC, concrete frames rather than structural steel.

Not picking (honest) but I'm not sure that your last example can be real. Sure, you do need specific experience to an extent but I doubt my managing partner would delegate a project on the basis of who has specific experience of the superstructure material.

Tannedbaldhead said:

As staff levels have been cut the line management structure of a Commercial Manager supported by Senior Surveyors, then Assistant Surveyors and Juniors has been stripped bare. What we have now is a Commercial manager supported by an Assistant Surveyor and that's it. The commercial manager is too busy to support, mentor or train his assistant thus needs someone who can get his arse on a seat on day one, open up his laptop and work unsupervised from day one.

This is one we're all very aware of being mindful that we're all being squeezed from both sides for fee, construction values are down but so are the percentages of the fee basis.

Clients have become very sensitive to an experienced surveyor dealing with the pitch, taking a brief and getting a job up and running and then being passed onto a relatively green surveyor with little support. There's only so many times one can say "I'll let you know when I get back to the office" before the client loses confidence in you.

This impacts on the job as a whole as issues that can be dealt with during meetings tend to drag out which impacts on the overall programme for obvious reasons. One of our main clients who is a commercial developer is now focussing heavily on programme (budget constraints have taken a back seat as tenders more often than not below Pre-tender estimates). The sooner they can get a tenant in the sooner they start seeing a return.

Tannedbaldhead said:

Am really sorry if I'm sounding pessimistic but you need to be aware that if you really want to be a QS (a good career and I'm sure with a 2:1 in Accountancy you have the brains and application do well at it) you have to be realistic and accept you're going to have to take some big steps backwards in order to take steps forwards.

Agreed, everyone started at the bottom, just be glad a comping room is a thing of the past.

[Tannedbaldhead]

sleep envy said:

Hit the 20th year of my career as a PQS and I've yet to write my first bill of quants, it's unlikely I could even remember how to if I tried. For what it's worth every practice I've worked at has subbed that out but only on the basis that the client has agreed to pay for the additional expense, I've yet to see a set of consultant appointment terms which don't specifically exclude bill writing.

Whether or not you would be required to write up a Bill Of Quantities would depend very much on what sort of company you work for. I worked for a main contractor so it did have to be done from time to time. Fortunately in our case the stakeholders looking at them are focused on items, quantities, rates and costs rather than layout so a perfect SMM7 document isn't required.

sleep envy said:

With respect to being site safe every new employee will go on a course regardless how much experience they have, it's to cover the employer's arse. And I'm not sure a grad will be supervising a team either.

Working for a contractor a QS is going to spend much more time on site. As such I'd say much more H&S training is required to enable that QS to discharge his personal responsibilities as per section 7 of HASWA. I know that whilst on site I have to check PPE, Scaffolding and general tidiness as do all the build professionals rather than making it the soul duty of the site agent.

sleep envy said:

Tannedbaldhead said:

No chance of getting in at assistant level. You'd need to start as a trainee.

A big problem with build professional positions is that it's very much a buyers' (employers') market. They aren't looking for transferable skills when they can get exactly what they are looking for. The experience to the position you apply for at the moment has to be absolute. I'm hearing of guys with years of experience being knocked back because they're background has been in building when the job is in civils, private sector rather than public or vice versa, contract experience is JCT rather than NEC, concrete frames rather than structural steel.

Not picking (honest) but I'm not sure that your last example can be real. Sure, you do need specific experience to an extent but I doubt my managing partner would delegate a project on the basis of who has specific experience of the superstructure material.
.

I get your point in that employers would not normally preclude a candidate from a project on the basis of specific experience of materials, build technologies and contract types. To be fair a surveyor is a surveyor, a contract is a contract, a measure a measure, a payment is a payment and a variation is a variation ( except when it's a compensation event :-) ). I'm pretty sure that after a week or two I could settle into your position and you could comfortably settle into mine.
That said, my experience is that with so many candidates applying for positions specific experience does come into the equation. Put it this way. You have a short list, two equally proficient surveyors shortlisted for the same position. You are a brickwork contractor specialising in brick façade cladding systems. On your short list is a QS from a house building contractor. He has worked with a lot of brick superstructures, founds and flat stairwells but then he also spends a lot of time on Kits, fixtures, roofing, landscaping etc etc. Candidate two is from one of your direct competitors, he knows your system suppiers, sub contractors, the build technology, the processes and your clients inside out. All other thing being equal who would you choose.

[sleep envy]

Tannedbaldhead said:

All other thing being equal who would you choose.

The one who's more cost economic

ps - commercial manager? on site?