E46 Rear Subframe
Discussion
I'm looking at buying a 2003 or 2004 M3. I understand that the rear sub-frame can crack and that BMW will check and (if necessary) repair it. I've found a car I want but the seller (a small local car dealer)knows nothing. As the car has a full BMW history will the BMW dealer have checked for sub-frame damage? I need to know ASAP as I'm taking a second look tomorrow morning and will need to make a decision to buy there and then.
The full BMW SH doesn't necessarily mean that it has been checked - there's plenty of dealers out there who don't even know how or what to look for. The majority of cars at this age will have the problem (at least hairline cracks) so personally I'd budget the redish repair into the buying price instead of trying to find one that's crack free. Redish will fix it for around £1000 and a lot of owners consider it to be a more thorough fix than what BMW offer themselves.
solidlad84 said:
The full BMW SH doesn't necessarily mean that it has been checked - there's plenty of dealers out there who don't even know how or what to look for. The majority of cars at this age will have the problem (at least hairline cracks) so personally I'd budget the redish repair into the buying price instead of trying to find one that's crack free. Redish will fix it for around £1000 and a lot of owners consider it to be a more thorough fix than what BMW offer themselves.
+1The Redish price is more like £1500 when VAT and sundry bits which seize or snap are added in, you could try haggling that much off but I doubt you'd get the full amount.
Try showing him this thread if he doesn't know about it:
http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=215...
Alternatively BMW are doing goodwill jobs to replace the boot floor with a redesigned panel on cars up to 10 years old which are presented for inspection with no suspension mods.
Mine has just been approved for a FOC repair at 130k and with only a partial main dealer history as the previous owner owned a chain of Land Rover dealerships and had the oil services done by his guys.
Try showing him this thread if he doesn't know about it:
http://forums.m3cutters.co.uk/showthread.php?t=215...
Alternatively BMW are doing goodwill jobs to replace the boot floor with a redesigned panel on cars up to 10 years old which are presented for inspection with no suspension mods.
Mine has just been approved for a FOC repair at 130k and with only a partial main dealer history as the previous owner owned a chain of Land Rover dealerships and had the oil services done by his guys.
By all accounts the 'new' diff carrier mounting panel is no different to any that were made since early 2000 when they changed the design (they altered the pressing to add some spot welds on the sides of the weldnut carrier that the actual diff carrier bolts to). The 'new' design fails slightly less often than the original E46 design, but it's still crap.
But what BMW do after this is inject the box sections with structural epoxy based foam, to tie the structure together (which, to be honest, they could have done by designing the metal structure better).
I've just done a late '99 328ci (you can see my thread in the BMW area) and it's a fairly involved job to strip the car, but not awful. On this car, the passenger rear mount pulled through the lower skin, leaving the diff carrier hanging. I made up reinforcements ala Reddish, after repairing the broken mount.
If I were you, I'd budget for things like replacing the rear brake pipes (either do it all the way up to the ABS/DSC block, or split half way and join) as you'll never get better access to them. Also replace bushes as required. As said above, consumable bits like clips, bolts and panel nuts are all needed - I spent about £75 on bits and bobs like this - but then a few of the under car plastics were broken, an exhaust mounting was missing etc.
I'd happily do another car, it's a big job, but strangely enjoyable.
But what BMW do after this is inject the box sections with structural epoxy based foam, to tie the structure together (which, to be honest, they could have done by designing the metal structure better).
I've just done a late '99 328ci (you can see my thread in the BMW area) and it's a fairly involved job to strip the car, but not awful. On this car, the passenger rear mount pulled through the lower skin, leaving the diff carrier hanging. I made up reinforcements ala Reddish, after repairing the broken mount.
If I were you, I'd budget for things like replacing the rear brake pipes (either do it all the way up to the ABS/DSC block, or split half way and join) as you'll never get better access to them. Also replace bushes as required. As said above, consumable bits like clips, bolts and panel nuts are all needed - I spent about £75 on bits and bobs like this - but then a few of the under car plastics were broken, an exhaust mounting was missing etc.
I'd happily do another car, it's a big job, but strangely enjoyable.
TorqueVR said:
...I understand that the rear sub-frame can crack..
No this is incorrect, it is NOT the subframe that cracks. What cracks is areas of the rear floor itself where the subframe actually bolts to it.
TorqueVR said:
..and that BMW will check and (if necessary) repair it. I've found a car I want but the seller (a small local car dealer)knows nothing. As the car has a full BMW history will the BMW dealer have checked for sub-frame damage? I need to know ASAP as I'm taking a second look tomorrow morning and will need to make a decision to buy there and then.
If the car has been checked or repaired by a BMW dealer then it will be logged onto the system so a call to BMW will reveal if they have any record of it. Its not something they would check off their own backs and it is a specific check undertaken upon request of the customer. Generally its a £30 fee to check, but free if a crack is found. If its been done then any owner would surely want a record of it in their service history so if you cant see it there then its likely its not been done.As said already, not all dealers are as good as one another when it comes to identifying and repair. Fortunately for me my local dealer are well aware of the issue and my car was inspected and as a result the rear floor was all replaced under warranty (there is a general criteria the car has to meet for this to happen btw). Credit where credit is due the dealership were superb to deal with from start to finish and I was very impressed with their service.
bgunn said:
Lots of stuff
I bought a 51 plate M3 coupé last year and after having an inspection carried out by Specialist Cars BMW body shop negotiated £1600 off the original deal because the floor where the axle carrier is bolted up was showing early signs of cracking. After talking to Matt at Mprove, who specialise in this repair also, the £1600 figure was what I felt was sufficient to carry out the repair plus a few other bits that would most likely need replacing whilst it was being done. I think the crack repair is just under £1000 on its own. My understanding re the new floor design is that they changed it in 2005. Regardless, I think you are better to buy a car that has already been repaired or if you can negotiate enough money to cover getting it done yourself it is better than buying one that is apparently crack free. There is plenty of discussion saying its only a matter of time before it cracks.
MMT said:
My understanding re the new floor design is that they changed it in 2005.
The pics/cars I've seen doesn't seem to indicate that; nor the parts lists. Basically, if you get a repair panel (rather than them bodging a load of epoxy foam in the hole on a partially cracked panel), you're getting the same panel as was there originally on any E46 M3.
If you get a good dealership that actually replaces the panel, that's good, because a lot do just routinely squirt the foam in and hope for the best by all accounts, which isn't going to help if the mounts are starting to pull out. If you're seeing damage at the bottom, the welds at the top will likely have split as there's less of them in a smaller surface area.
Another shout for MProve: http://www.mprovesolutions.com/ Had my CSL into them last month for preventative work (no cracks found) which included strengthening plates, epoxy resin injection on both sides and all new subframe bushings, and delighted with the work. The car is a keeper, so wanted it done for future peace of mind. Matt is an absolute gent to deal with too, and a proper BMW enthusiast
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So....I spoke with Cotswold BMW who'd done the servicing and they advised that they check for cracks and gave the car the OK, so I bought it. And I've been a very happy chappie for nearly 4 months (especially as it's a convertible and the weather's been pretty good)
But there was that niggling doubt in the back of my mind so I took it in to Dick Lovett in Bristol on Thursday, who found a hairline floor crack and showed me with a photo. They checked the service record and asked for a copy of the V5 and today (Saturday) phoned to book it in for a new floor at BMW's expense. The chap I spoke said they'd done "hundreds" which I assume is a bit of an exaggeration, but he certainly gave the impression that they knew what they are doing. I'll report next month when the car's back, but they want it for two weeks and are booked 4 weeks ahead.
But there was that niggling doubt in the back of my mind so I took it in to Dick Lovett in Bristol on Thursday, who found a hairline floor crack and showed me with a photo. They checked the service record and asked for a copy of the V5 and today (Saturday) phoned to book it in for a new floor at BMW's expense. The chap I spoke said they'd done "hundreds" which I assume is a bit of an exaggeration, but he certainly gave the impression that they knew what they are doing. I'll report next month when the car's back, but they want it for two weeks and are booked 4 weeks ahead.
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