981 Boxster S Manual Gear Ratios - What have Porsche done??
Discussion
Being a driver of a 996 C4S Tip i do laugh a bit at this. Admittedly i understand the frustration that you are getting with the ratios but then i remember all the posts about how "manual is the only way to go", "its not a proper drive unless YOU are changing gear with your left hand" etc etc. In theory i only have 4 gears and the spread of torque on the 3.6 has not made me think how bad the gearbox is. Yes its a bit slow on the change but i dont habitually put in lap records at Silverstone so it doesnt really bother me. But looking at 7 speed manuals that Porsche are now making, its PDK for me in my next car.
MadMark981 said:
How much better would it be if the gearing was 1st - 38mph, 2nd 68mph, 3rd 90mph, 4th 120mph, 5th 150mph and 6th for 175mph
That's pretty much what my 993 is geared for and it makes for a fun drive. For the 1997 model year they increased the ratios by about 10% purely for economy reasons, which is very dissappointing because longer ratios takes a lot of fun out of the drive, and not doubt some of the performance as well.I drove a 986 S a while back and it felt noticeably slower than my 993 just because of the ratios.
Whereas my X5 feels quick due the very short ratios...1st 29, 2nd 44, 3rd 69, 4th 82, 5th 106, 6th 137, 7th 163, 8th 205. Thank god it's an auto!
MadMark981 said:
I believe they are - but I can't understand why he would think they were so appropriate? The engine is torquey everywhere - but only really gets going at 4,500rpm .... So imagine an overtake on an A road at 50mph, 3rd gear has you at around 3,500rpm, so to be safe and overtake quickly, you have to then pop it down to 2nd. This gives you 5,300rpm and has you smack in the meat of the powerband - cue a howling and wailing moment as you blast past before popping it into 6th - but you're having to use 2nd!
How much better would it be if the gearing was 1st - 38mph, 2nd 68mph, 3rd 90mph, 4th 120mph, 5th 150mph and 6th for 175mph
Then in the same situation you could pull 3rd, from just under 4,400 rpm and still blast past .....
I commented on this in my test drive, on most tight 2nd gear exits the car is simply not in the powerband. How much better would it be if the gearing was 1st - 38mph, 2nd 68mph, 3rd 90mph, 4th 120mph, 5th 150mph and 6th for 175mph
Then in the same situation you could pull 3rd, from just under 4,400 rpm and still blast past .....
In my write up on the 981 Boxster S I said it needed shorter gearing to improve what is a great car.
Am sure getting the final drive sorted would resolve this as ideally you want 2nd topping out around 65mph and 3rd about 95mph.
I'm resurrecting this thread as I'm struggling to decide between a manual and PDK car. There's a lot of discussion on other forums about Porsche's documented FDR for the 981 PDK transmission, with 3.25 stated. If this is correct then it's even longer than the manual.
The 991 PDK is claimed to have a 3.44 FDR, which is slightly better than the 981. However, the speeds attained at redline in both the 981 and 991 indicate neither FDR is correct, i.e. topspeed in a PDK cars is lower than the ratios indicate it should be.
I got bored and did this:
The 991 PDK is claimed to have a 3.44 FDR, which is slightly better than the 981. However, the speeds attained at redline in both the 981 and 991 indicate neither FDR is correct, i.e. topspeed in a PDK cars is lower than the ratios indicate it should be.
I got bored and did this:
Edited by CJP80 on Tuesday 13th May 12:34
CJP80 said:
I'm resurrecting this thread as I'm struggling to decide between a manual and PDK car. There's a lot of discussion on other forums about Porsche's documented FDR for the 981 PDK transmission, with 3.25 stated. If this is correct then it's even longer than the manual.
The 991 PDK is claimed to have a 3.44 FDR, which is slightly better than the 981. However, the speeds attained at redline in both the 981 and 991 indicate neither FDR is correct, i.e. topspeed in a PDK cars is lower than the ratios indicate it should be.
I got bored and did this:
The max speed in gear for the 981S manual and (PDK)The 991 PDK is claimed to have a 3.44 FDR, which is slightly better than the 981. However, the speeds attained at redline in both the 981 and 991 indicate neither FDR is correct, i.e. topspeed in a PDK cars is lower than the ratios indicate it should be.
I got bored and did this:
Edited by CJP80 on Tuesday 13th May 12:34
Gear / Ratio (PDK) / Max Speed (PDK) MPH
1st / 3.31 (3.91) / 49 (42)
2nd / 1.95 (2.29) / 84 (71)
3rd /1.41 (1.65) /116 (99)
4th / 1.13 (1.30) / 144 (125)
5th /.95 (1.08) / 172 (151)
6th / .81 (.88) / 201 (185)
7th / (.62) / (263)
CJP80 said:
I'm resurrecting this thread as I'm struggling to decide between a manual and PDK car. There's a lot of discussion on other forums about Porsche's documented FDR for the 981 PDK transmission, with 3.25 stated. If this is correct then it's even longer than the manual.
The 991 PDK is claimed to have a 3.44 FDR, which is slightly better than the 981. However, the speeds attained at redline in both the 981 and 991 indicate neither FDR is correct, i.e. topspeed in a PDK cars is lower than the ratios indicate it should be.
I got bored and did this:
According to this link the FDR is 3.89 for both manual and PDK: http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/2013/2013_Boxste...The 991 PDK is claimed to have a 3.44 FDR, which is slightly better than the 981. However, the speeds attained at redline in both the 981 and 991 indicate neither FDR is correct, i.e. topspeed in a PDK cars is lower than the ratios indicate it should be.
I got bored and did this:
Edited by CJP80 on Tuesday 13th May 12:34
rudester said:
According to this link the FDR is 3.89 for both manual and PDK: http://press.porsche.com/vehicles/2013/2013_Boxste...
Yes, I've seen that but there are other Porsche documents that state 3.25 for 981 and 3.44 for 991. Also, the document in your link doesn't have any figures in parentheses, so I think the PDK figure is omitted.Now if the 981 PDK has 3.89, it would put more power down than a 991 PDK, which it obviously doesn't. So then the 991 PDK would need to be 3.89 also. If that were true, why are Porsche producing documents with incorrect FDR figures for both 981 and 991. It seems unlikely.
Did you see the table I included? It's been calculated pretty accurately.
CJP80 said:
Yes, I've seen that but there are other Porsche documents that state 3.25 for 981 and 3.44 for 991. Also, the document in your link doesn't have any figures in parentheses, so I think the PDK figure is omitted.
Now if the 981 PDK has 3.89, it would put more power down than a 991 PDK, which it obviously doesn't. So then the 991 PDK would need to be 3.89 also. If that were true, why are Porsche producing documents with incorrect FDR figures for both 981 and 991. It seems unlikely.
Did you see the table I included? It's been calculated pretty accurately.
Sorry, I had missed your table. To me the 981s gearing is too long for the road (even PDK). You often in yourself in 2nd stuck behind slower traffic and having to wait for the engine to come on power and then decelerating as soon as you hit 3rd.Now if the 981 PDK has 3.89, it would put more power down than a 991 PDK, which it obviously doesn't. So then the 991 PDK would need to be 3.89 also. If that were true, why are Porsche producing documents with incorrect FDR figures for both 981 and 991. It seems unlikely.
Did you see the table I included? It's been calculated pretty accurately.
It's interesting that the road speed at maximum revs on the 911 GT3 is lower.
the 981 gear ratios and final drive ratio are the same as the 987.2.the fdr are 3.89 manual and 3.25 pdk.
the pdk are also same ratios in 997.2 and 991 not sure on fdr.all have is a fdr of 3.44.the manual 991 is different in 2nd 3rd and 4th and has extra 7 th gear to 997.2
997.2manual
3.91 2.32 1.56 1.28 1.08 0.88
991manual
3.91 2.29 1.55 1.30 1.08 0.88 0.71
the pdk are also same ratios in 997.2 and 991 not sure on fdr.all have is a fdr of 3.44.the manual 991 is different in 2nd 3rd and 4th and has extra 7 th gear to 997.2
997.2manual
3.91 2.32 1.56 1.28 1.08 0.88
991manual
3.91 2.29 1.55 1.30 1.08 0.88 0.71
Edited by itsybitsy on Tuesday 13th May 16:17
This is quite interesting, as I've just ordered a Man box GTS. I did notice the ratios were longer, but most performance cars put you at or close to, 70mph in second gear anyway.
My current car has enough torque, to make anything over 1/2 throttle in first gear mostly a waste of tyre rubber. Fun for a while, but traction in first gear is something I miss!
So I see it as gaining a usable gear, for speeds below NSL, not losing out on a very small amount of a legal 3rd gear.
My current car has enough torque, to make anything over 1/2 throttle in first gear mostly a waste of tyre rubber. Fun for a while, but traction in first gear is something I miss!
So I see it as gaining a usable gear, for speeds below NSL, not losing out on a very small amount of a legal 3rd gear.
Red 5 said:
This is quite interesting, as I've just ordered a Man box GTS. I did notice the ratios were longer, but most performance cars put you at or close to, 70mph in second gear anyway.
My current car has enough torque, to make anything over 1/2 throttle in first gear mostly a waste of tyre rubber. Fun for a while, but traction in first gear is something I miss!
So I see it as gaining a usable gear, for speeds below NSL, not losing out on a very small amount of a legal 3rd gear.
Top of 2nd is closer to 82mph, though. My current car has enough torque, to make anything over 1/2 throttle in first gear mostly a waste of tyre rubber. Fun for a while, but traction in first gear is something I miss!
So I see it as gaining a usable gear, for speeds below NSL, not losing out on a very small amount of a legal 3rd gear.
I currently have 7 Porsche, all manual. And I've recently sold 2 others that were also manual. I currently use a 991 GTS as my daily and have done several thousand miles in it.
Yes, the gears are long.
Yes the 7 speed box takes a little getting used to.
Yes, sometimes a prod of the throttle doesn't bring much response if the revs are low.
However yesterday I drove from Liverpool to Caenby Corner at a reasonable rate and averaged 34mpg according to the dashboard.
BUT: like all Porsches, the car gets better the harder you drive. When driving enthusiastically on the lanes or in Snowdonia or in Scotland, places with space and quiet roads, the gearbox and gearing are not only 'not an issue' , they are brilliant. Perfect for the car. The first 3 gears cover 50% of the roads, 4th gear covers another 45% and on 5% of the roads 5th can be used. When changing gear at or close to the redline. The 7 speed only gets a bit 'unnatural' when coming down the box from 6th or 7th.
Porsche know what they're doing with sports cars, trust them !!
Yes, the gears are long.
Yes the 7 speed box takes a little getting used to.
Yes, sometimes a prod of the throttle doesn't bring much response if the revs are low.
However yesterday I drove from Liverpool to Caenby Corner at a reasonable rate and averaged 34mpg according to the dashboard.
BUT: like all Porsches, the car gets better the harder you drive. When driving enthusiastically on the lanes or in Snowdonia or in Scotland, places with space and quiet roads, the gearbox and gearing are not only 'not an issue' , they are brilliant. Perfect for the car. The first 3 gears cover 50% of the roads, 4th gear covers another 45% and on 5% of the roads 5th can be used. When changing gear at or close to the redline. The 7 speed only gets a bit 'unnatural' when coming down the box from 6th or 7th.
Porsche know what they're doing with sports cars, trust them !!
981C said:
Top of 2nd is closer to 82mph, though.
It is indeed. So to gain even a small amount of legal 3rd, we'd really like to see 20mph reduction in red line achieved in 2nd?Can Porsche really be that wrong? That's a huge %!
I think the gearing is most likely correct for the car, the open roads and for a pure performance driving experience.
If you were to go out when it's dead quiet and adopt Cannonball road rules, then I think you'd find the ratios bang on.
So, that this isn't perfect for the everyday grind isn't a surprise. So A road overtakes all start in 2nd for maximum effect? Well yes, as the car is only just rolling, at the seemingly arbitrary 41mph adopted on NSL sections!
The car is great, but the rules and traffic spoil the fun. Nothing new sadly.
It also makes perfect sense that the taller gears are more closely stacked. These gears (are supposed to) see very high speeds with huge aero drag, so no large drops is revs are desirable between ratios.
Only about 1/3 of the cars speed range is legal on single NSL roads, so I guess only 1/3 of the gears are usable (legally)
(6sp CGTS)
I just hope I can live with the compromise!
I know I have mentioned this before, but the top end of 2nd in my PDK CGTS is only 76mph, and I think the published PDK FD ratio is wrong. The difference between the manual and the PDK is therefore more pronounced.
I couldn't get an answer out of Porsche, but here's what I observe:
Ok, there's a little lag in the speedo display, but the actual shift from 2nd to 3rd occurs at an indicated 72mph, which is more like 76mph if you see the pic; the revs are dropping during the shift but the speedo catches up, moving from 72 to 76.
I would have expected to see 80-83mph if the FD was 3.25, making the gearing very similar to the 6 speed manual.
I couldn't get an answer out of Porsche, but here's what I observe:
Ok, there's a little lag in the speedo display, but the actual shift from 2nd to 3rd occurs at an indicated 72mph, which is more like 76mph if you see the pic; the revs are dropping during the shift but the speedo catches up, moving from 72 to 76.
I would have expected to see 80-83mph if the FD was 3.25, making the gearing very similar to the 6 speed manual.
As some people on this thread have astutely observed, the ratios make more sense on proper wide open roads. Like in their home market. I have an S1 Elise 111S with close ratio gearbox. 70mph is 3500rpm. It’s crap on the motorway. On the autobahn these big ratios are exactly what you want.
highway said:
As some people on this thread have astutely observed, the ratios make more sense on proper wide open roads. Like in their home market. I have an S1 Elise 111S with close ratio gearbox. 70mph is 3500rpm. It’s crap on the motorway. On the autobahn these big ratios are exactly what you want.
That still doesn't make any sense. What is needed are sane ratios 1-5, then a longer 6th for autobahn cruising.Gassing Station | Porsche General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff