Fiat Cinq Handbrake
Discussion
The handbrake on my wifes rare (no rust) cinq only goes up one click before its on. I have checked the rear handbrake parts that always sieze cleaned up and copper eased, still no better and there is no adjustment availiable on the cable under the car. Is there anything I'm missing like another adjuster or some other problen.
Thanks in advance
Rob
Thanks in advance
Rob
If it is on at one click & off when dropped what is the problem?
I admit 1 click is not much, but as above if it is going on & off in the limit of it's travel then it is working.
If there are cable length adjusters they are normally at the lever end.
I admit 1 click is not much, but as above if it is going on & off in the limit of it's travel then it is working.
If there are cable length adjusters they are normally at the lever end.
Edited by andyiley on Sunday 16th June 12:55
andyiley said:
If it is on at one click & off when dropped what is the problem?
If it's that tight then just normal suspension movement could apply the handbrake.The handbrake cable adjustment is at the hand brake lever end of the cable, underneath the car. There is a threaded ferrule on one of the cables with a couple of locknuts to hold it in position.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Wednesday 19th June 00:03
one eyed mick said:
Suspension movment can actuate hand brake if cable is too tight believe me if not correctly adjusted whist car is jaced up or on wheel free ramp with susp on full droop the brakes will bind when loaded !! been there ,done it
Agreed on "full droop" with the car jacked up the handbrake can start to bind, but have you ever see a car on the road with it's suspension on "full droop"...... I suspect not.andyiley said:
Where did you come up with that idea from?
Suspension goes up & down, cable flexes as it is designed to, not a problem!
Clearly you have little experience of bowden cables. When you bend a bowden cable, you increase the length of the outer cable, which is effectively the same as decreasing the length of the inner. One click simply isn't sufficient on the majority of cars to guarantee that the brakes will not start binding within the range of normal suspension movement , which is why you won't see "1 click" as a recommended clearance in a service manual (for any car I have ever worked on anyway).Suspension goes up & down, cable flexes as it is designed to, not a problem!
andyiley said:
Agreed on "full droop" with the car jacked up the handbrake can start to bind, but have you ever see a car on the road with it's suspension on "full droop"...... I suspect not.
In answer to your question NO but if the cable is adjusted with the susp on full droop it will shorten when the car is at correct ride hieght and make the brakes bind 50 years of repairing cars has taught me a little perhaps I you should learn a little more about actualities and not theories Mr2Mike said:
andyiley said:
Where did you come up with that idea from?
Suspension goes up & down, cable flexes as it is designed to, not a problem!
Clearly you have little experience of bowden cables. When you bend a bowden cable, you increase the length of the outer cable, which is effectively the same as decreasing the length of the inner. One click simply isn't sufficient on the majority of cars to guarantee that the brakes will not start binding within the range of normal suspension movement , which is why you won't see "1 click" as a recommended clearance in a service manual (for any car I have ever worked on anyway).Suspension goes up & down, cable flexes as it is designed to, not a problem!
Yes, I agree, when you bend a Bowden cable you increase the length of the outer with respect to the inner..... However read on.
I think you will find, if you look at virtually any hand brake cable run. The only part of the cable that actually moves when the suspension travels is the lateral part between the last body mount & the first mount on the suspension. As this is LATERAL the suspension movement actually VERY SLIGHTLY twists the cable, not bends it.
Also, as this is commonly 18" to 2ft, the effect of this 10 to 20 degree twist is so small, as to be measured in a few thou' only.
I agree with your next statement "One click simply isn't sufficient on the majority of cars to guarantee that the brakes will not start binding within the range of normal suspension" apart from one thing, that is if you define normal suspension travel as "normal ON THE ROAD suspension travel" then the answer will be no in every case I have come across.
The next bit I agree with 1 click will not be recommended, 3 to 5 is far more normal, although most manufacturer's adjustment procedures differ in many ways.
one eyed mick said:
andyiley said:
Agreed on "full droop" with the car jacked up the handbrake can start to bind, but have you ever see a car on the road with it's suspension on "full droop"...... I suspect not.
In answer to your question NO but if the cable is adjusted with the susp on full droop it will shorten when the car is at correct ride hieght and make the brakes bind 50 years of repairing cars has taught me a little perhaps I you should learn a little more about actualities and not theories In reality we all adjust handbrakes on full droop, as that is the only way we can check the handbrake is fully off, binding or whatever.
In over 30 years of doing this job on countless numbers of cars I have never had to re-adjust a handbrake because it binds in normal on the road suspension travel.
I think we need to agree to disagree on this one, build a bridge, and get over it.
andyiley said:
Mick, As above I agree with the statement that from full droop to full compression, there is the chance that with 1 click on to off the handbrake could start to bind, however in the real world of "on the road" suspension travel even with 1 click from on to off the likelihood of this being the case is zero.
In reality we all adjust handbrakes on full droop, as that is the only way we can check the handbrake is fully off, binding or whatever.
In over 30 years of doing this job on countless numbers of cars I have never had to re-adjust a handbrake because it binds in normal on the road suspension travel.
I think we need to agree to disagree on this one, build a bridge, and get over it.
So why do manufacturers not set up handbrakes to have only one click of clearance if it can never possible be a problem?In reality we all adjust handbrakes on full droop, as that is the only way we can check the handbrake is fully off, binding or whatever.
In over 30 years of doing this job on countless numbers of cars I have never had to re-adjust a handbrake because it binds in normal on the road suspension travel.
I think we need to agree to disagree on this one, build a bridge, and get over it.
The answer is because it can cause problems, and I know this from first hand experience which is why I mentioned it. A local garage kindly 'adjusted' the handbrake on my wifes Mk1 Octavia to pass an MOT, as they though the travel was excessive (even though the handbrake worked fine). The MOT was a rush job as we discovered it was due to expire in the middle of a holiday we were taking (poor planning I know). It made it back from the garage with no problems, but when fully laden with 4 people and luggage the rear brakes were literally smoking within a few miles of setting off.
Not only can it cause binding, having insufficient clearance can also cause the self adjusters in the calipers to stop working properly.
Mr2Mike said:
So why do manufacturers not set up handbrakes to have only one click of clearance if it can never possible be a problem?
The answer is because it can cause problems, and I know this from first hand experience which is why I mentioned it. A local garage kindly 'adjusted' the handbrake on my wifes Mk1 Octavia to pass an MOT, as they though the travel was excessive (even though the handbrake worked fine). The MOT was a rush job as we discovered it was due to expire in the middle of a holiday we were taking (poor planning I know). It made it back from the garage with no problems, but when fully laden with 4 people and luggage the rear brakes were literally smoking within a few miles of setting off.
Not only can it cause binding, having insufficient clearance can also cause the self adjusters in the calipers to stop working properly.
I have seen this time and time again !!! aleast some one is on the samepage !! the worst ofenders were Mk1/2 fiestas The answer is because it can cause problems, and I know this from first hand experience which is why I mentioned it. A local garage kindly 'adjusted' the handbrake on my wifes Mk1 Octavia to pass an MOT, as they though the travel was excessive (even though the handbrake worked fine). The MOT was a rush job as we discovered it was due to expire in the middle of a holiday we were taking (poor planning I know). It made it back from the garage with no problems, but when fully laden with 4 people and luggage the rear brakes were literally smoking within a few miles of setting off.
Not only can it cause binding, having insufficient clearance can also cause the self adjusters in the calipers to stop working properly.
Mr2Mike said:
So why do manufacturers not set up handbrakes to have only one click of clearance if it can never possible be a problem?
The answer is because it can cause problems, and I know this from first hand experience which is why I mentioned it. A local garage kindly 'adjusted' the handbrake on my wifes Mk1 Octavia to pass an MOT, as they though the travel was excessive (even though the handbrake worked fine). The MOT was a rush job as we discovered it was due to expire in the middle of a holiday we were taking (poor planning I know). It made it back from the garage with no problems, but when fully laden with 4 people and luggage the rear brakes were literally smoking within a few miles of setting off.
Not only can it cause binding, having insufficient clearance can also cause the self adjusters in the calipers to stop working properly.
I agree that having insufficient clearance can cause the automatic adjusters to stop adjusting correctly.The answer is because it can cause problems, and I know this from first hand experience which is why I mentioned it. A local garage kindly 'adjusted' the handbrake on my wifes Mk1 Octavia to pass an MOT, as they though the travel was excessive (even though the handbrake worked fine). The MOT was a rush job as we discovered it was due to expire in the middle of a holiday we were taking (poor planning I know). It made it back from the garage with no problems, but when fully laden with 4 people and luggage the rear brakes were literally smoking within a few miles of setting off.
Not only can it cause binding, having insufficient clearance can also cause the self adjusters in the calipers to stop working properly.
However, I find it hard to believe that when the MOT garage "adjusted the handbrake to pass the MOT" they made sure that the brakes were not binding in mormal use.
Several ? try 4 years at a ford main dealer pos 5/6 cars a day BTW add to that 5/6 years at a Fiat agency , I know of NO car where 1 click on a hand brake does not mean either bad adjustment or seized cables or linkage or even both at the same time will not post any more its getting silly
As I said originally:
"I admit 1 click is not much, but as above if it is going on & off in the limit of it's travel then it is working"
ie. If it is going fully on & fully off & not binding over the course of it's travel it is not a problem.
If either of the above is not the case then it is. As you said in your last posting.
I will have to bow down to your superior experience on the Fiest point as I have never had the issue.
The OP never did answer if it is or isn't however, so we are none-the-wiser.
"I admit 1 click is not much, but as above if it is going on & off in the limit of it's travel then it is working"
ie. If it is going fully on & fully off & not binding over the course of it's travel it is not a problem.
If either of the above is not the case then it is. As you said in your last posting.
I will have to bow down to your superior experience on the Fiest point as I have never had the issue.
The OP never did answer if it is or isn't however, so we are none-the-wiser.
As One eye Mick has said, this thread could get silly if it has not already done so. However I will risk just two more points:
Firstly I seem to remember at some time in my motoring past having a car with just two clicks on the handbrake ratchet. The first click was half way up and the second at full height. I can't remember what car it was. It might have been a 1962 Mini, or an Austin Maxi, or a Vauxhall Viva or maybe even a more modern Seicento about twelve years ago. Maybe someone could clarify if the Cinq has a "normal" handbrake ratchet or one with fewer clicks.
Secondly, Fiats used to achieve automatic adjustment by means of spring pressure and friction between washers and the brake shoe rather than the self adjuster used in other cars. Does the Cinq still have this system? With this system there would be minimal clearance between the brake-shoe and drum so there would be very little travel in the hand brake lever.
Please note that I am not saying the OP has or hasn't a problem, I am just asking about two characteristics of Fiats that might be relevant to the query and which don't seem to have been considered.
Firstly I seem to remember at some time in my motoring past having a car with just two clicks on the handbrake ratchet. The first click was half way up and the second at full height. I can't remember what car it was. It might have been a 1962 Mini, or an Austin Maxi, or a Vauxhall Viva or maybe even a more modern Seicento about twelve years ago. Maybe someone could clarify if the Cinq has a "normal" handbrake ratchet or one with fewer clicks.
Secondly, Fiats used to achieve automatic adjustment by means of spring pressure and friction between washers and the brake shoe rather than the self adjuster used in other cars. Does the Cinq still have this system? With this system there would be minimal clearance between the brake-shoe and drum so there would be very little travel in the hand brake lever.
Please note that I am not saying the OP has or hasn't a problem, I am just asking about two characteristics of Fiats that might be relevant to the query and which don't seem to have been considered.
I too was hoping the OP would chip in & answer the questions that have been put to him to enable us to help him out, alas he seems to have dunna runna!
Maybe we will never know!
Oh, and by the way, I don't think it has been silly. We have differing experiences & expressed different opinions, and I think that is good for healthy discussion.
Maybe we will never know!
Oh, and by the way, I don't think it has been silly. We have differing experiences & expressed different opinions, and I think that is good for healthy discussion.
Edited by andyiley on Saturday 22 June 09:43
Just my experience
No theoretical mechanical engineering involved
My Mondeo has 1 click to on, I can pull 2 and even 3 if I lean on it
On most hand breaks the travel distance to 1 click is about 50mm at the ratchet.
If concerned and cable adjustment is not available then you need to look at the auto adjuster in the drums, these can sometimes be wound back but may just reset to where you on first application of the handbrake
No theoretical mechanical engineering involved
My Mondeo has 1 click to on, I can pull 2 and even 3 if I lean on it
On most hand breaks the travel distance to 1 click is about 50mm at the ratchet.
If concerned and cable adjustment is not available then you need to look at the auto adjuster in the drums, these can sometimes be wound back but may just reset to where you on first application of the handbrake
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