Main dealers - has common sense been lost?
Discussion
I've just bought a three year-old car from a main dealer two hours' drive away. I'm very pleased with it but both HID headlights were adjusted very low. The HIDs go through their normal up/down/sideways calibration whenever I start the car so I didn't feel that the low adjustment was a system failure; just a calibration one.
The supplying dealer offered to take a look, but rather than drive four hours to get them adjusted I dropped into my local dealer on Friday and asked their advice. "Ooh, there could be any number of things wrong, from an issue with the rear body height sensors to the motors that raise and lower the beam. You'd need to book it in to us so we can take a look. Oh, and by the way only failed parts would be covered by the warranty; the labour charge of diagnosing the problem wouldn't be covered by the [manufacturer-backed] approved used warranty."
A bit of Googling this weekend revealed a forum thread in which a helpful chap described how each of the headlight units has two manual allen-key adjusters, for beam vertical and horizontal alignment. A tweak this evening and a test drive have got them pretty much perfect.
WTbloodyF were the dealers playing at?! Why couldn't the supplying salesman or the local service manager have applied some common sense and told me about these adjustment points?
/rant
The supplying dealer offered to take a look, but rather than drive four hours to get them adjusted I dropped into my local dealer on Friday and asked their advice. "Ooh, there could be any number of things wrong, from an issue with the rear body height sensors to the motors that raise and lower the beam. You'd need to book it in to us so we can take a look. Oh, and by the way only failed parts would be covered by the warranty; the labour charge of diagnosing the problem wouldn't be covered by the [manufacturer-backed] approved used warranty."
A bit of Googling this weekend revealed a forum thread in which a helpful chap described how each of the headlight units has two manual allen-key adjusters, for beam vertical and horizontal alignment. A tweak this evening and a test drive have got them pretty much perfect.
WTbloodyF were the dealers playing at?! Why couldn't the supplying salesman or the local service manager have applied some common sense and told me about these adjustment points?
/rant
Well it could have been the stuff they mentioned.
Everyone knows about these adjustments on xenon lights, maybe they just assumed that for something so basic that you had already checked them
I think they'd even be in your manual to make it even funnier. Ironic thread is ironic actually.
Everyone knows about these adjustments on xenon lights, maybe they just assumed that for something so basic that you had already checked them
I think they'd even be in your manual to make it even funnier. Ironic thread is ironic actually.
Did you want the local dealer to fix a car that they haven't earned a penny from for free ?
They are right, could have been any sort of problem - remember they haven't seen or know the car, if they blindly went on trying to adjust the headlamps with a fault (like the rear sensor out of spec) they'd get nowhere. By doing a diagnostic they'd know the system was operating properly and therefore were free to adjust the lamps.
The way you should have organised it was for the supplying dealer to pay the local dealer's labour bill.
They are right, could have been any sort of problem - remember they haven't seen or know the car, if they blindly went on trying to adjust the headlamps with a fault (like the rear sensor out of spec) they'd get nowhere. By doing a diagnostic they'd know the system was operating properly and therefore were free to adjust the lamps.
The way you should have organised it was for the supplying dealer to pay the local dealer's labour bill.
McSam said:
But why should the default stance to be plugging in a very expensive diagnostic tool, when you could first advise the customer of a very simple manual adjustment to try first?
a) it's less profitableb) you assume people working in dealerships actually know of such simple fixes
probably
main dealers are almost all totally private, although they only supply one make, that is no their choice, the manufacturers are the ones who insist on that.
Taking it to another dealers, is like buying a HP laptop in tesco, then taking it into PC world and expecting them to diagnose what is wrong with it for free just because they also stock HP
Taking it to another dealers, is like buying a HP laptop in tesco, then taking it into PC world and expecting them to diagnose what is wrong with it for free just because they also stock HP
Matt UK said:
a) it's less profitable
b) you assume people working in dealerships actually know of such simple fixes
probably
But that's my point. The complete lack of knowledge and default tendancy to profiteer pisses me off. The dealership should be about sales, service and satisfaction, not taking every tiny opportunity to rinse their own marque's customers with pointless diagnostics.b) you assume people working in dealerships actually know of such simple fixes
probably
it is amazing how people do not know that their 'badly adjusted blinding headlights' can be easily fixed by manually adjusting - or even temporarily moving the headlight adjusting switch downwards. it's not like they cannot see they are blinding people as they are hit by reflecting light from roadside signs.
There is no manual adjustment; some drivers ( 'cos I drive behind a pair of H4s when required 
) are at the mercy of these damn things! No point plugging in the 'black box o'trix'; they are supposed to 'reset' at the start of every journey... Imagining that they 'reset' so as to suit oncoming drivers is - sadly - a fallacy 
.
OP, they probably 'work' right - as designed - so ignore the headlight-flashing oncoming drivers .
'cos I drive behind a pair of H4s when required ) are at the mercy of these damn things! No point plugging in the 'black box o'trix'; they are supposed to 'reset' at the start of every journey... Imagining that they 'reset' so as to suit oncoming drivers is - sadly - a fallacy .OP, they probably 'work' right - as designed - so ignore the headlight-flashing oncoming drivers
.McSam said:
Matt UK said:
a) it's less profitable
b) you assume people working in dealerships actually know of such simple fixes
probably
But that's my point. The complete lack of knowledge and default tendancy to profiteer pisses me off. The dealership should be about sales, service and satisfaction, not taking every tiny opportunity to rinse their own marque's customers with pointless diagnostics.b) you assume people working in dealerships actually know of such simple fixes
probably
But then it's the reason I've chosen not to have visited a main dealer for years. But there are plenty other out there who do visit, so I'm sure they're not awake at night worrying about my lack of custom.
I've bought a £27,000 M5 (four years old) and the dealership didn't check the pressure in the tyres, oil in the engine sprayed the metallic trim matt silver and so on. They told me they performed some 137 point check that cost them £2k or some tosh.
I called Toyota for my wifes Toyota Auris that had water in the boot well. It was an approved used car that we bought a month earlier. They told me that the diagnonsis would not be covered if it turned out the failure was not covered by warranty. I asked them exactly how water in the car was not covered by warranty?
I called Toyota for my wifes Toyota Auris that had water in the boot well. It was an approved used car that we bought a month earlier. They told me that the diagnonsis would not be covered if it turned out the failure was not covered by warranty. I asked them exactly how water in the car was not covered by warranty?
McSam said:
But why should the default stance to be plugging in a very expensive diagnostic tool, when you could first advise the customer of a very simple manual adjustment to try first?
But that very basic thing is in the manual.I'd assume that this would have already been checked as it's like the most common basic thing known to man! The fact that they went straight onto the suspension height and motors makes it sound like they know exactly what they're on about and would know where to begin poking.
It's like me going to a dealer and saying, hey my washer jets aren't working. Everyone will straightaway assume you have tried topping off the reservoir.
McSam said:
But why should the default stance to be plugging in a very expensive diagnostic tool, when you could first advise the customer of a very simple manual adjustment to try first?
Because they could spend ages f
king about trying to adjust it and never succeed if there is a fault somewhere ?Once they'd checked the system was all good they'd probably then adjust it.
I would hazard that those saying it's in the manual, or applying any level of assumed knowledge to the customer, haven't actually worked in automotive service! The majority are absolutely clueless and you should always, always cover the very basics because it can save you so much time. And yes, if someone came in with washers not working, the reservoir is the first thing I'd check. Why would you ever NOT take the simplest approach first?
I appreciate the usefulness of diagnostics when it comes to fault finding in complex systems, and for determining correct part replacement they can be invaluable. But if there's a manual adjustment for a system which needs adjusting, it worries me to imagine nobody would think to try it first.
Crafty_ said:
Because they could spend ages fking about trying to adjust it and never succeed if there is a fault somewhere ?
Once they'd checked the system was all good they'd probably then adjust it.
Well they could, or they could just spend less time than it takes to plug the machine in, whack two turns on one adjuster and see what happens. Less than thirty seconds to do that, and hey presto, the cheapest and simplest approach has fixed it.king about trying to adjust it and never succeed if there is a fault somewhere ?Once they'd checked the system was all good they'd probably then adjust it.
I appreciate the usefulness of diagnostics when it comes to fault finding in complex systems, and for determining correct part replacement they can be invaluable. But if there's a manual adjustment for a system which needs adjusting, it worries me to imagine nobody would think to try it first.
Sump - The owners' manual says "Headlight levelling is adjusted automatically". There's no mention of the manual adjustment method. Silly me for reading the manual.
It's fair enough for the local dealer to charge diagnostic labour if the manufacturer's warranty doesn't cover it for something like this (I wouldn't expect it on an engine problem, for example). My irritation is simply that a 30-second show-and-tell with my car in the car park would have given me an easy thing to try first before they got all medieval with their diagnostics on it, and I'd have walked away delighted with their customer service. Instead I came away feeling as though they were either robots blindly following the manufacturer's complicated diagnostic instructions, or they were incompetent.
I had a similar thing on my last car, an Audi. Before taking it to the continent I asked the supplying dealer how to adjust the HID lights. Their service advisor sucked his teeth and told me I'd need to book it in for an hour's labour and, oh sorry we can't do it while you wait, you'll need to leave it with us for the day, and we don't have a courtesy car until a week's time. And it'll be the same process when you get back. I called another local dealer whose response was, "Pop over with it now and we'll do it for you. Takes ten minutes. No charge." When the first service was due it was the second, smaller dealer who got my custom.
Actually, I've just realised: it's the same main dealer group who pissed me around with the Audi that just failed the common sense test on the new car. Doh! Why am I surprised.
It's fair enough for the local dealer to charge diagnostic labour if the manufacturer's warranty doesn't cover it for something like this (I wouldn't expect it on an engine problem, for example). My irritation is simply that a 30-second show-and-tell with my car in the car park would have given me an easy thing to try first before they got all medieval with their diagnostics on it, and I'd have walked away delighted with their customer service. Instead I came away feeling as though they were either robots blindly following the manufacturer's complicated diagnostic instructions, or they were incompetent.
I had a similar thing on my last car, an Audi. Before taking it to the continent I asked the supplying dealer how to adjust the HID lights. Their service advisor sucked his teeth and told me I'd need to book it in for an hour's labour and, oh sorry we can't do it while you wait, you'll need to leave it with us for the day, and we don't have a courtesy car until a week's time. And it'll be the same process when you get back. I called another local dealer whose response was, "Pop over with it now and we'll do it for you. Takes ten minutes. No charge." When the first service was due it was the second, smaller dealer who got my custom.
Actually, I've just realised: it's the same main dealer group who pissed me around with the Audi that just failed the common sense test on the new car. Doh! Why am I surprised.
Edited by threadlock on Monday 15th July 09:07
McSam said:
ell they could, or they could just spend less time than it takes to plug the machine in, whack two turns on one adjuster and see what happens. Less than thirty seconds to do that, and hey presto, the cheapest and simplest approach has fixed it.
I appreciate the usefulness of diagnostics when it comes to fault finding in complex systems, and for determining correct part replacement they can be invaluable. But if there's a manual adjustment for a system which needs adjusting, it worries me to imagine nobody would think to try it first.
So what if the adjuster moved, then you shut the lights down and turn them on again and your adjustment made no difference ?I appreciate the usefulness of diagnostics when it comes to fault finding in complex systems, and for determining correct part replacement they can be invaluable. But if there's a manual adjustment for a system which needs adjusting, it worries me to imagine nobody would think to try it first.
What if a whole bunch of adjustment got it "right", only for the driver to get in and the lights point all over the place ?
No doubt you'd soon be back at the dealer complaining they were idiots and didn't know how to do a simple job.
Even something as relatively simple as headlight alignment is controlled by an ECU with defined logic and various sensors/motors etc. You could spend more timing buggering about getting it wrong and making it worse before you solve the problem.
Plug the diag in, do a self test and then keep an eye on the sensor readings whilst its adjusted, then at least you'll know its set up correctly.
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