Wideband lambda - Innovate LC-1 alternative?
Discussion
What wideband lambda setups are people using on here?
Anyone else had problems with an Innovate LC-1 wideband system?
Despite wiring it in properly, regular sensor calibrations and trying different sensors, it's just never accurate. Having compared it to my standalone LM-2 setup, calibrated ETAS stuff, MOT emissions kit and various dyno operator's widebands, it's never been within 1 AFR of any of the other kit.
Innovate now seem to have shut down their forums too... Mine is an early LC-1, but running the latest firmware from Innovate. I've heard various rumours of the early LC-1s being rubbish, so wondered if anyone on here had similar experiences?
Anyone else had problems with an Innovate LC-1 wideband system?
Despite wiring it in properly, regular sensor calibrations and trying different sensors, it's just never accurate. Having compared it to my standalone LM-2 setup, calibrated ETAS stuff, MOT emissions kit and various dyno operator's widebands, it's never been within 1 AFR of any of the other kit.
Innovate now seem to have shut down their forums too... Mine is an early LC-1, but running the latest firmware from Innovate. I've heard various rumours of the early LC-1s being rubbish, so wondered if anyone on here had similar experiences?
LC1 is utter garbage and anyone that reckons otherwise is either very lucky or has no idea what they are talking about or is getting paid to tell us how brilliant they are. Mega unreliable, inaccurate and their support sucks. You are lucky if it works for long enough for you to plug in a laptop and start configuring it.
I now use either Techedge or PLX. The Techedge units are rather expensive but well made. The PLX units are less well made but work well and are accurate. At present I have both a Techedge 2J2 and a PLX in my car and they agree to within 0.1AFR and also agreed with the calibrated lambda on the dyno. Under extreme heat the techedge seems to drift by around .2AFR but I don't see that as a fault, I just put it too close to the turbo.
I now use either Techedge or PLX. The Techedge units are rather expensive but well made. The PLX units are less well made but work well and are accurate. At present I have both a Techedge 2J2 and a PLX in my car and they agree to within 0.1AFR and also agreed with the calibrated lambda on the dyno. Under extreme heat the techedge seems to drift by around .2AFR but I don't see that as a fault, I just put it too close to the turbo.
fatjon said:
LC1 is utter garbage and anyone that reckons otherwise is either very lucky or has no idea what they are talking about or is getting paid to tell us how brilliant they are. Mega unreliable, inaccurate and their support sucks. You are lucky if it works for long enough for you to plug in a laptop and start configuring it.
This EXACTLY mirrors my experience with it. The LM-2 I have is fine, but the LC-1 is a load of crap. I got fed up with being told I must've wired it wrongly by Innovate, and they got sick of me telling them that their automotive electronics design expertise and competence was severely lacking.Funnily enough I was talking to a tuner last week who had similar experiences, and had also switched to PLX products with the occasional Techedge unit. Apparently he's now using LC-1s again though as the new design ones are okay - does anyone else know if this is true?
Zeitronix do nice kit too, but for a permanent installation I'm after something a bit cheaper. The only thing that puts me off the Techedge and PLX products are distinctly non-automotive connectors/cases.
Anyone know if AEM stuff is okay?
MvHK said:
I have used the AEM Wideband for a number of times, and I have never had any problems with them. And it's the one I will recommend.
Have you used the 0-5V output on it for an ECU at all? The AEM documentation is quite detailed if you're integrating it with an AEM ECU, but a bit brief for other standalone ECUs.I also discovered that Zeitronix now offer a similar piece of kit to Innovate's LC-1:
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=303. My brother's Zeitronix kit has been very good, just a shame they haven't switched to proper automotive connectors and a sealed case yet.
fatjon said:
LC1 is utter garbage and anyone that reckons otherwise is either very lucky or has no idea what they are talking about or is getting paid to tell us how brilliant they are. Mega unreliable, inaccurate and their support sucks. You are lucky if it works for long enough for you to plug in a laptop and start configuring it.
I now use either Techedge or PLX. The Techedge units are rather expensive but well made. The PLX units are less well made but work well and are accurate. At present I have both a Techedge 2J2 and a PLX in my car and they agree to within 0.1AFR and also agreed with the calibrated lambda on the dyno. Under extreme heat the techedge seems to drift by around .2AFR but I don't see that as a fault, I just put it too close to the turbo.
Meh had mine nearly 10 years now, not one jot of an issue with it.I now use either Techedge or PLX. The Techedge units are rather expensive but well made. The PLX units are less well made but work well and are accurate. At present I have both a Techedge 2J2 and a PLX in my car and they agree to within 0.1AFR and also agreed with the calibrated lambda on the dyno. Under extreme heat the techedge seems to drift by around .2AFR but I don't see that as a fault, I just put it too close to the turbo.
99% of the time I've found the issues are down to a poor user install.
As for accuracy, how do you know when your techedge units sensor has drifted? Oh yeah wait you don't you're blissfully ignorant of it, at least the Innovate will report errors and allow you to recalibrate.
Obviously YMMV, but I know of lots of people who use an LC-1 and have zero issues with it. :shrugs:
Vixpy1 said:
LM-2 is fine, LC1's are crap.
We use the tech edge stuff and its great
We use the tech edge stuff and its great
My LM2 (full kit) as been great in over 3 years 
the shipped Firmware was a bit flaky (freezing) but since then absolutely rock on 
saved over £80 getting from the states too 
Edited by Sardonicus on Friday 2nd August 16:14
Richyvrlimited said:
As for accuracy, how do you know when your techedge units sensor has drifted? Oh yeah wait you don't you're blissfully ignorant of it, at least the Innovate will report errors and allow you to recalibrate.
I compare it with the PLX and the Dyno lambda and if they agree it's the techedge that drifted, not rocket science is it especially when I already know I put it too close to the turbo. If it's a hard error rather than a drift it flashes a code and you can also login with the WBO2 software and see the error. I might add that it also knows when it has a problem and fixes the output at 14.7 AFR rather than telling the ECU to either piss in a load of fuel or hole your pistons by going lean unlike the LC1.Are you telling me the LC1 somehow magically knows when it's sensor has drifted and sends you a telegram? Drift compensation, offset and calibration are done exactly the same way with a techedge as with other controllers and it uses the same Bosch sensors as any other. The question is one of the reliability and repeatability of the controllers. As for the comment about installing them incorrectly, well that's the same rubbish Innovate spout. If I can install the four wires and sensor plug for all the others correctly what's the big secret about how to install an LC1 without blowing it up? Why don't they print this secret in 30 point letters on the front of the manual to save us mere mortals from our own supposed idiocy?
Many people don't understand that any ground does not = ground, you need to use specific grounds otherwise you end up with ground offsets and other strange behaviour. i.e. tapping the stereo harness or the cig lighter for ground is a pretty bad idea.
You're 100% correct in that it's not rocket science, this is why is so surprising how many people manage to f
k it up. As you say it's only a few wires, but still people find it complicated and can't be arsed reading the instructions properly.
As for the sensor drift, yes they use the same sensor, however the sensor is calibrated at the factory and a bias resistor internal to the sensor is used to calibrate. The LC-1/LM-2 etc bypass this resistor and are able to calibrate via the controller.
No it can't report sensor drift, it's be impressive it it could, but semi-regular re-calibrations (as per the manual), ensures that any drift is accounted for and corrected.
Personally I'd rather have the 'hassle' of recalibrating once a year than be blissfully unaware that my sensor is running half a point leaner, and not being able to do anything about it.
You're 100% correct in that it's not rocket science, this is why is so surprising how many people manage to f
k it up. As you say it's only a few wires, but still people find it complicated and can't be arsed reading the instructions properly.As for the sensor drift, yes they use the same sensor, however the sensor is calibrated at the factory and a bias resistor internal to the sensor is used to calibrate. The LC-1/LM-2 etc bypass this resistor and are able to calibrate via the controller.
No it can't report sensor drift, it's be impressive it it could, but semi-regular re-calibrations (as per the manual), ensures that any drift is accounted for and corrected.
Personally I'd rather have the 'hassle' of recalibrating once a year than be blissfully unaware that my sensor is running half a point leaner, and not being able to do anything about it.
Richy, the Techedge also has manual calibration just like the Innovate. If you had made this comment about the PLX I would be agreeing with you, that does rely on the calibration resistor as do all (?) OEM setups.
I understand the difference between sensor grounds and chassis grounds and the implications of voltage offsets between the two, the plain fact is that I have tried LC1's numerous times over the years after people have said the problems are all fixed and they are now OK and they are not fixed and they are not OK. I have tried these units 5 times, 2 out of box failures both blamed on me when all I did was hook up the power and sensor on the bench and meter the output. 1 which ran for less than an hour then failed with no error recorded, reading 12:1 AFR regardless of whether it was in free air or 100% petrol fumes. That could have destroyed a very expensive engine in seconds if it had been in use and boosting hard. Of the last two, the first created so much RFI that the radio would not work and the replacement they sent me after weeks of argument lasted a month before it started to drift rich day by day until eventually it would not calibrate at all. I replaced the sensor at my own expense as I couldn't be bothered to argue the toss with them again and discovered it was yet again the LC1 that was stuffed.
I don't doubt that some lucky people have them working, but I worry that some have them and think they are working when they are not. My experience with 5 of my own and many others that have been through my hands for friends etc mean I cannot in good faith recommend them to anyone.
I understand the difference between sensor grounds and chassis grounds and the implications of voltage offsets between the two, the plain fact is that I have tried LC1's numerous times over the years after people have said the problems are all fixed and they are now OK and they are not fixed and they are not OK. I have tried these units 5 times, 2 out of box failures both blamed on me when all I did was hook up the power and sensor on the bench and meter the output. 1 which ran for less than an hour then failed with no error recorded, reading 12:1 AFR regardless of whether it was in free air or 100% petrol fumes. That could have destroyed a very expensive engine in seconds if it had been in use and boosting hard. Of the last two, the first created so much RFI that the radio would not work and the replacement they sent me after weeks of argument lasted a month before it started to drift rich day by day until eventually it would not calibrate at all. I replaced the sensor at my own expense as I couldn't be bothered to argue the toss with them again and discovered it was yet again the LC1 that was stuffed.
I don't doubt that some lucky people have them working, but I worry that some have them and think they are working when they are not. My experience with 5 of my own and many others that have been through my hands for friends etc mean I cannot in good faith recommend them to anyone.
fatjon said:
Richy, the Techedge also has manual calibration just like the Innovate. If you had made this comment about the PLX I would be agreeing with you, that does rely on the calibration resistor as do all (?) OEM setups.
I thought it was only the 2J2 that had a manual calibration?I have used the 2j1 2j2, 3b1 and 3H1. They all have manual calibration within the WBO2 application. They have an auto calibrate button which will do a quick free air calibration if you are in a hurry and don't want to connect in and do a manual calibration. With the application you can do fancy stuff like adding offsets and non linearity to the output voltage if you need to. They really are very nice units. Having tried both the 2Jx and 3XX units I now keep the extra money in my pocket and stick with the 2J2 unless it's a V engine and I need to monitor both banks. The higher end models do have more logging and numerous analog and digital inputs for measurements of other parameters but for the most part they seem unnecessary to me as the ECU already has all of that data. I suppose if you are not using engine management these may be useful.
Richyvrlimited said:
Many people don't understand that any ground does not = ground, you need to use specific grounds otherwise you end up with ground offsets and other strange behaviour. i.e. tapping the stereo harness or the cig lighter for ground is a pretty bad idea.
If only that were the issue with mine...However, it seems that the early LC-1s were just a load of s
te - why else would Innovate regularly delete their forum posts complaining about them, and eventually shut the forums completely?! I gave up trying to get any support from them, their responses generally suggested that it had to be wired incorrectly - or that I'd damaged the sensor.Easy enough to test for ground offset issues anyway, flat-line the AFR vs voltage curve and check that your gauge/ECU reads the voltage you set. Mine has always passed this test perfectly, just seems that the wideband interface is wholly useless - at least on mine.
I'm amused by assertions that LC-1 is super-accurate because you have to 'free-air' calibrate it. Truely calibrating an instrumentation level wideband involves testing it across a range of reference AFRs, not just 'free-air'.
Thinking I'll go for an AEM unit as it gives me gauge and 0-5V output for ECU without having to put up with nasty non-automotive connectors under the bonnet. Anyone want to buy an LC-1 with gauge?
The free air calibration is pretty much the same across all of them. Logic is that most buyers will not have access to calibration gasses to do anything more advanced. I think the precision is in the trimming of the sensors at manufacture which is why I prefer pukka Bosch ones rather than the assorted Chinese copies.
I had one unit failing in the car. No more communication.
I had two sensors failing due to the fast warmup. there is condensation hitting the ceramic in the first few seconds after warmup. Yet innovate advertises that their LC-1 is now starting in less than 2 seconds or so.
After some time I knew the LED blink error codes from memory. I almost had them all.
p..ce of s..t.
I since move on to the STACK unit. Fits beautifully to my S1 Elise and works flawlessly. Simple wiring, too. 12V, Ground, analog out for my Emerald ECU, big cable to the sensor with connector on it.
Ps I had an electronics company and developed sensor electronics for a living. I KNOW how to wire up mixed signal electronics.
the LC-1 might look slick, but automotive electronics need to be robust. if any nearby relay clicking is causing the unit to crash, I cannot use it in a car.
same thing with an other buddy. Heavily modified big engined 1968 VW beetle (2.6l type 4, Porsche gearbox, ITBs) also had nothing but trouble. Unit was fit by a professional auto electrician, that also wired in the fuel injection system. Now STACK and ZERO issues.
An other buddy in a Lotus Elise S1 with a supercharged Honda K20A2 has also ZERO issues for a couple of years. He is only using it as an indicator. the Honda Kpro ECU runs its own lambda. the engine still shows lambda 1.00 while idling. drift cannot be that bad.
Marko
Marko
I had two sensors failing due to the fast warmup. there is condensation hitting the ceramic in the first few seconds after warmup. Yet innovate advertises that their LC-1 is now starting in less than 2 seconds or so.
After some time I knew the LED blink error codes from memory. I almost had them all.
p..ce of s..t.
I since move on to the STACK unit. Fits beautifully to my S1 Elise and works flawlessly. Simple wiring, too. 12V, Ground, analog out for my Emerald ECU, big cable to the sensor with connector on it.
Ps I had an electronics company and developed sensor electronics for a living. I KNOW how to wire up mixed signal electronics.
the LC-1 might look slick, but automotive electronics need to be robust. if any nearby relay clicking is causing the unit to crash, I cannot use it in a car.
same thing with an other buddy. Heavily modified big engined 1968 VW beetle (2.6l type 4, Porsche gearbox, ITBs) also had nothing but trouble. Unit was fit by a professional auto electrician, that also wired in the fuel injection system. Now STACK and ZERO issues.
An other buddy in a Lotus Elise S1 with a supercharged Honda K20A2 has also ZERO issues for a couple of years. He is only using it as an indicator. the Honda Kpro ECU runs its own lambda. the engine still shows lambda 1.00 while idling. drift cannot be that bad.
Marko
Marko
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