Best Smoker Barges 1-5 large [Vol 6]

[derin100]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ok. I stand corrected. I didn't know all of that information. It's just what I've heard from a couple BMW and Merc owners that have either sold their cars through them or viewed cars with a view to buying.

I'd also add that I have to admit that if what they doing were really such an easy way of making a good living why don't I just do that? It's probably a combination of knowing there isn't really enough room for another player of that model but also knowing that really it's probably not as easy as I previously suggested. So I apologise for that.

[CampDavid]

I think there's an increasing market for independents offering older kit in a boutique style fashion. I don't think this works for every car and the examples sold have to be utterly spot on but this is the route I'd look to go down if I were into the same things as you (older Mercs and BMWs, detailing, perfection) and wanted to make some money in the car game.

http://www.4starclassics.com/
www.kgfclassiccars.co.uk
http://www.mtsv.co.uk/Showroom.htm

are all good places to start.

[harry kular]

CampDavid said:

I think there's an increasing market for independents offering older kit in a boutique style fashion. I don't think this works for every car and the examples sold have to be utterly spot on but this is the route I'd look to go down if I were into the same things as you (older Mercs and BMWs, detailing, perfection) and wanted to make some money in the car game.

http://www.4starclassics.com/
www.kgfclassiccars.co.uk
http://www.mtsv.co.uk/Showroom.htm

are all good places to start.

As some of the other contributors may have pointed out, Derin is basically already there with what he does already.
His site is established and no doubt has good traffic.
It taps in to the enthusiast base- the target market is already going to him.
His level of detail in preparation is staggering- it would just need to be brought back a bit to get the costs to a reasonable level.

None of the above outfits would go to the lengths of preparation that he has in the past, presumably they pick and choose the essential items to balance the cost/margin equation.

For me, he does this so well, it's a no brainer to continue on the same path- just cut the costs!

Edited by harry kular on Thursday 31st October 09:50

[r129sl]

harry kular said:

CampDavid said:

I think there's an increasing market for independents offering older kit in a boutique style fashion. I don't think this works for every car and the examples sold have to be utterly spot on but this is the route I'd look to go down if I were into the same things as you (older Mercs and BMWs, detailing, perfection) and wanted to make some money in the car game.

http://www.4starclassics.com/
www.kgfclassiccars.co.uk
http://www.mtsv.co.uk/Showroom.htm

are all good places to start.

As some of the other contributors may have pointed out, Derin is basically already there with what he does already.
His site is established and no doubt has good traffic.
It taps in to the enthusiast base- the target market is already going to him.
His level of detail in preparation is staggering- it would just need to be brought back a bit to get the costs to a reasonable level.

None of the above outfits would go to the lengths of preparation that he has in the past, presumably they pick and choose the essential items to balance the cost/margin equation.

For me, he does this so well, it's a no brainer to continue on the same path- just cut the costs!

Edited by harry kular on Thursday 31st October 09:50

It seems to me that the top end market is divided into two parts. There is the really, really expensive end, represented here by KGF (new one to me, thanks for that), Hexagon Classics and, perhaps, Four Star Classics. And then there is the familiar expensive specialist, I am most familiar with the Mercedes guys, Wilford, Ironside, Avantgarde, MTSV.

The really top end guys it seems to me are just blowing up a bubble which will pop. The 924 Carrera GT on KGF's site, for example, changed gads at £20k earlier this year. The r107s that Hexagon offers are two and three times the price similar cars were last year. This think-of-a-number-and-double-it approach is not really sustainable.

The familiar specialists are a mystery to me. I cannot see how these guys make any decent money or, for that matter, any money at all. Unless they have a large volume of sales which never make the website, the turnover just isn't there. They seem to sell at most five cars a month at an average of, say, £7,500 each. Given that they have to fund premises, rates, heat and light, repairs, paintwork, preparation, lavish advertising, telephone, website, insurance and so on, as well as buying in the cars, I just don't see how they can do it. As far as I know most of them work on a consignment basis (sale or return, discussed above) because they do not have the capital to tie up in the stock. What will the fee be? 20%? £1,000 a car? And still they have to fund most of the above expenses. It seems like a very hard way to earn a couple of grand a month.

[derin100]

harry kular said:

CampDavid said:

I think there's an increasing market for independents offering older kit in a boutique style fashion. I don't think this works for every car and the examples sold have to be utterly spot on but this is the route I'd look to go down if I were into the same things as you (older Mercs and BMWs, detailing, perfection) and wanted to make some money in the car game.

http://www.4starclassics.com/
www.kgfclassiccars.co.uk
http://www.mtsv.co.uk/Showroom.htm

are all good places to start.

As some of the other contributors may have pointed out, Derin is basically already there with what he does already.
His site is established and no doubt has good traffic.
It taps in to the enthusiast base- the target market is already going to him.
His level of detail in preparation is staggering- it would just need to be brought back a bit to get the costs to a reasonable level.

None of the above outfits would go to the lengths of preparation that he has in the past, presumably they pick and choose the essential items to balance the cost/margin equation.

For me, he does this so well, it's a no brainer to continue on the same path- just cut the costs!

Edited by harry kular on Thursday 31st October 09:50

You guys are making me 'think'! Yes, the website I've had running for 13 years now. With absolutely no advertising it gets a steady 100 hits per day when I haven't recently put a car on and usually climbs to 250-300 when I have.
Over the years I've also built up quite a bit of personal knowledge and gather a good group of people to do stuff that I can't do myself.
Maybe if I was doing it full-time things wouldn't take so long either.

Ok...but here's another problem/obstacle. I've so often wracked my brain as to where the people who do this sort of model well (e.g the above examples but I'd also add Charles Ironside, Jonathan at Avantgarde, Nick at W124) actually source such potentially good cars in the first place? No need to answer that Nick!

I mean, through simple habit, continually scour the internet for interesting sounding potential projects. The only car in recent times where I've picked up a really unique car from the outset was the blue W202 on my website that had only 12K miles on the clock when I got it. But when I sold it at just over £5K I still didn't make a single penny.

I once watched an interview with Noel Gallagher on his reaction to first listening to Paul Weller's 'Stanley Road' album. In a jovial and friendly manner his reaction was: "Oh God! The fking bd has gone and done it again!" That's how I feel when I see the brilliant cars the guys above come up with!

Where do they get them?!!!

[jke11y]

Some of the things these guys managed to shift are hilarious; my cap is doffed in their direction. I sell exceptional things (furniture in my case) and guess cars can be the same, sometimes its hard sometimes it is easy.

http://www.kgfclassiccars.co.uk/details.php?cid=13...

[derin100]

r129sl said:

harry kular said:

CampDavid said:

I think there's an increasing market for independents offering older kit in a boutique style fashion. I don't think this works for every car and the examples sold have to be utterly spot on but this is the route I'd look to go down if I were into the same things as you (older Mercs and BMWs, detailing, perfection) and wanted to make some money in the car game.

http://www.4starclassics.com/
www.kgfclassiccars.co.uk
http://www.mtsv.co.uk/Showroom.htm

are all good places to start.

As some of the other contributors may have pointed out, Derin is basically already there with what he does already.
His site is established and no doubt has good traffic.
It taps in to the enthusiast base- the target market is already going to him.
His level of detail in preparation is staggering- it would just need to be brought back a bit to get the costs to a reasonable level.

None of the above outfits would go to the lengths of preparation that he has in the past, presumably they pick and choose the essential items to balance the cost/margin equation.

For me, he does this so well, it's a no brainer to continue on the same path- just cut the costs!

Edited by harry kular on Thursday 31st October 09:50

It seems to me that the top end market is divided into two parts. There is the really, really expensive end, represented here by KGF (new one to me, thanks for that), Hexagon Classics and, perhaps, Four Star Classics. And then there is the familiar expensive specialist, I am most familiar with the Mercedes guys, Wilford, Ironside, Avantgarde, MTSV.

The really top end guys it seems to me are just blowing up a bubble which will pop. The 924 Carrera GT on KGF's site, for example, changed gads at £20k earlier this year. The r107s that Hexagon offers are two and three times the price similar cars were last year. This think-of-a-number-and-double-it approach is not really sustainable.

The familiar specialists are a mystery to me. I cannot see how these guys make any decent money or, for that matter, any money at all. Unless they have a large volume of sales which never make the website, the turnover just isn't there. They seem to sell at most five cars a month at an average of, say, £7,500 each. Given that they have to fund premises, rates, heat and light, repairs, paintwork, preparation, lavish advertising, telephone, website, insurance and so on, as well as buying in the cars, I just don't see how they can do it. As far as I know most of them work on a consignment basis (sale or return, discussed above) because they do not have the capital to tie up in the stock. What will the fee be? 20%? £1,000 a car? And still they have to fund most of the above expenses. It seems like a very hard way to earn a couple of grand a month.

Exactly! This is why I actually have the greatest respect and admiration for that second group.

[E65Ross]

0a said:

What happened to all the E32s? All I can see on autotrader is this 202k example. I loved these almost as much as the e23, but they now seem to be as rare. Were they big rust buckets, or just rare?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2013...

they were rare. they were seriously expensive in their day....similar to a current 7 series (inflation aside, of course) but there were no lease deals like today!

[richardxjr]

jke11y said:

Some of the things these guys managed to shift are hilarious; my cap is doffed in their direction. I sell exceptional things (furniture in my case) and guess cars can be the same, sometimes its hard sometimes it is easy.

http://www.kgfclassiccars.co.uk/details.php?cid=13...

Indeed a strange mix. Maestro van, Solara, Reliant, Marina ... all a bit WTF!

Wonder what the GSA Pallas went for?

[r129sl]

Is KGF Classic Cars a phoenix company for Eclectic Cars? If so, that tells you all you need to know about the economics of it. And look what happened to Andrew Stansfield at Classic Benz a few years ago. Besides, turn a pleasurable hobby into a job and it ceases to be a pleasure. Stick with the day job is what I tell my miserable self. (All of this is typed from my desk in Chambers where I am cheerfully failing to earn any money at all.)

[bmthnick1981]

r129sl said:

Is KGF Classic Cars a phoenix company for Eclectic Cars? If so, that tells you all you need to know about the economics of it. And look what happened to Andrew Stansfield at Classic Benz a few years ago. Besides, turn a pleasurable hobby into a job and it ceases to be a pleasure. Stick with the day job is what I tell my miserable self. (All of this is typed from my desk in Chambers where I am cheerfully failing to earn any money at all.)

No, the phoenix of Eclectic Cars is Classic Car Project Shop; http://www.classiccarprojectshop.com/

[Gruber]

derin100 said:

You guys are making me 'think'! Yes, the website I've had running for 13 years now. With absolutely no advertising it gets a steady 100 hits per day when I haven't recently put a car on and usually climbs to 250-300 when I have.
Over the years I've also built up quite a bit of personal knowledge and gather a good group of people to do stuff that I can't do myself.
Maybe if I was doing it full-time things wouldn't take so long either.

Ok...but here's another problem/obstacle. I've so often wracked my brain as to where the people who do this sort of model well (e.g the above examples but I'd also add Charles Ironside, Jonathan at Avantgarde, Nick at W124) actually source such potentially good cars in the first place? No need to answer that Nick!

I mean, through simple habit, continually scour the internet for interesting sounding potential projects. The only car in recent times where I've picked up a really unique car from the outset was the blue W202 on my website that had only 12K miles on the clock when I got it. But when I sold it at just over £5K I still didn't make a single penny.

I once watched an interview with Noel Gallagher on his reaction to first listening to Paul Weller's 'Stanley Road' album. In a jovial and friendly manner his reaction was: "Oh God! The fking bd has gone and done it again!" That's how I feel when I see the brilliant cars the guys above come up with!

Where do they get them?!!!

I think a lot of 4star's business comes from people approaching them and wanting to sell. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same for KFG, Avantgarde, etc. No doubt they had to spend time trawling ebay and the auction houses in the early days, but I guess once you've established yourself with the right reputation, the stock finds you to some degree.

If you decided to set yourself up in business, I'd be so bold as to venture that you've already done the lion's share of "establishing the reputation".

The big decision, it seems to me, is whether you want to put your own money into stock or whether you want to run a SOR model. The latter is more scaleable and lower risk, but the former has the potential for higher profit per unit.

[derin100]

r129sl said:

Is KGF Classic Cars a phoenix company for Eclectic Cars? If so, that tells you all you need to know about the economics of it. And look what happened to Andrew Stansfield at Classic Benz a few years ago. Besides, turn a pleasurable hobby into a job and it ceases to be a pleasure. Stick with the day job is what I tell my miserable self. (All of this is typed from my desk in Chambers where I am cheerfully failing to earn any money at all.)

Those were EXACTLY my thoughts when I went to the KGF website for the first time just now! Like you my thoughts were: "They're a new one on me...how could this have slipped completely under my radar?!". Then when I went on there I thought this all looks strangely familiar?

Then my next thought was exactly those of the Andrew Stansfield case which (ironically) I only read about and caught up with yesterday via some rather circuitous internet browsing.

On the second point though. I'm guessing you're still a little younger than me (and I know you don't work in the NHS). There is 'misery'. Misery I've coped with for pragmatic reasons for nearly 20 years. One can even cope with torture if needs be for quite a long time. But then there's a whole level beyond that...one that I can't even articulate in a single word...but as example: I'm off work this week on leave. I go back next Monday (it's Thursday today). If I stop and allow myself to think, even for a second, about going back on Monday entails and what might be awaiting me I feel physically sick in my stomach. That kind of somatic manifestation of despair that can't continue for years and years. I'd rather have no money than carry on doing this until I'm 65. In fact, I'm sure I wouldn't make it that far.

[bmthnick1981]

derin100 said:

r129sl said:

Is KGF Classic Cars a phoenix company for Eclectic Cars? If so, that tells you all you need to know about the economics of it. And look what happened to Andrew Stansfield at Classic Benz a few years ago. Besides, turn a pleasurable hobby into a job and it ceases to be a pleasure. Stick with the day job is what I tell my miserable self. (All of this is typed from my desk in Chambers where I am cheerfully failing to earn any money at all.)

Those were EXACTLY my thoughts when I went to the KGF website for the first time just now! Like you my thoughts were: "They're a new one on me...how could this have slipped completely under my radar?!". Then when I went on there I thought this all looks strangely familiar?

Then my next thought was exactly those of the Andrew Stansfield case which (ironically) I only read about and caught up with yesterday via some rather circuitous internet browsing.

On the second point though. I'm guessing you're still a little younger than me (and I know you don't work in the NHS). There is 'misery'. Misery I've coped with for pragmatic reasons for nearly 20 years. One can even cope with torture if needs be for quite a long time. But then there's a whole level beyond that...one that I can't even articulate in a single word...but as example: I'm off work this week on leave. I go back next Monday (it's Thursday today). If I stop and allow myself to think, even for a second, about going back on Monday entails and what might be awaiting me I feel physically sick in my stomach. That kind of somatic manifestation of despair that can't continue for years and years. I'd rather have no money than carry on doing this until I'm 65. In fact, I'm sure I wouldn't make it that far.

KGF is Karl Fasulo. It is nothing to do with Eclectic or Andrew Stansfield.

[tog]

AudiWurst said:

r129sl said:

I love the XM. I remember when they came out, I was on a school holiday in France. They were all gunmetal grey metallic. For a long while I thought that was the only colour they came in! What is the general consensus on the correct engine?

I've seen quite a bit of chat on other websites that the XM is a future classic, destined to follow in the footsteps of the DS and (to a lesser extent) the CX. Fair comment, or undeserved hyperbole for a flaky '90s French barge?

Regarding the correct engine, I'd pick the 2.1TD for its Frenchness. The PRV 3.0 V6 was never a great engine, and the 2.0 four was pretty weak.

Sorry to drag the thread back to yesterday, but I have a thing for XMs and spend far too long looking at the adverts, but haven't yet dared actually buy one. A friend is a retired Citroen main dealer, and tells me he really couldn't recommend an XM as a car to actually use regularly - unreliable when new and they ain't even new any more. As for engine, my local Citroen dealer, a small family run company, told me he only ever sold three V6 XMs over the years – all of them had new gearboxes under warranty, and one of them had three!

Edit to add - I still want one though!

Edited by tog on Thursday 31st October 12:04

[r129sl]

bmthnick1981 said:

KGF is Karl Fasulo. It is nothing to do with Eclectic or Andrew Stansfield.

Please don't think I was casting any aspersions or making any adverse comment about any. I simply didn't know whether or not KGF was Eclectic reborn (I see the Classic Car Project has that honour) and then my next thought was that it had all gone wrong for Stansfield, who seems to have disappeared from the business altogether. Further, neither Eclectic Cars Limited nor Eclectic Cars Limited nor Eclectic Cars Detailing Limited went into liquidation or any kind of insolvency régime: rather they were simply allowed to be struck off the register in the case of the first and last without ever filing any accounts.

Edited by r129sl on Thursday 31st October 12:00

[derin100]

Gruber said:

I think a lot of 4star's business comes from people approaching them and wanting to sell. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same for KFG, Avantgarde, etc. No doubt they had to spend time trawling ebay and the auction houses in the early days, but I guess once you've established yourself with the right reputation, the stock finds you to some degree.

If you decided to set yourself up in business, I'd be so bold as to venture that you've already done the lion's share of "establishing the reputation".

The big decision, it seems to me, is whether you want to put your own money into stock or whether you want to run a SOR model. The latter is more scaleable and lower risk, but the former has the potential for higher profit per unit.

Hmmmm....

The funny thing is, just lately I keep being offered 'stuff' through my website and I've been turning all of it down as my whole focus over the last year has been simply to sell (nearly) everything I have, get the white 300CE finished and give the whole thing up! Just in the last two days I've been offered to potentially interesting sounding Mercs.

[r129sl]

derin100 said:

Hmmmm....

The funny thing is, just lately I keep being offered 'stuff' through my website and I've been turning all of it down as my whole focus over the last year has been simply to sell (nearly) everything I have, get the white 300CE finished and give the whole thing up! Just in the last two days I've been offered to potentially interesting sounding Mercs.

Are you going to share the details?

[bmthnick1981]

r129sl said:

derin100 said:

Hmmmm....

The funny thing is, just lately I keep being offered 'stuff' through my website and I've been turning all of it down as my whole focus over the last year has been simply to sell (nearly) everything I have, get the white 300CE finished and give the whole thing up! Just in the last two days I've been offered to potentially interesting sounding Mercs.

Are you going to share the details?

Quite what I was thinking! Offer the thread first refusal?

[bmthnick1981]

r129sl said:

bmthnick1981 said:

KGF is Karl Fasulo. It is nothing to do with Eclectic or Andrew Stansfield.

Please don't think I was casting any aspersions or making any adverse comment about any. I simply didn't know whether or not KGF was Eclectic reborn (I see the Classic Car Project has that honour) and then my next thought was that it had all gone wrong for Stansfield, who seems to have disappeared from the business altogether. Further, neither Eclectic Cars Limited nor Eclectic Cars Limited nor Eclectic Cars Detailing Limited went into liquidation or any kind of insolvency régime: rather they were simply allowed to be struck off the register in the case of the first and last without ever filing any accounts.

Edited by r129sl on Thursday 31st October 12:00

Understood and didn't think you were casting aspersions.

My understanding of Stansfield is that he had to sign a voluntary directors disqualification notice not to be involved in business for some time, 5 years perhaps?

Eclectic cars was clearly a pre-pack under which we can reasonably safely assume the owners got off quite lightly, however we will never know what, if any, deal was struck with creditors.