The professional cycling thread

The professional cycling thread

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Ken Sington

3,959 posts

238 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
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Matt_N said:
How do people feel about Sagan taking the green jersey despite no stage wins?

I know thems the rules but it feels a bit hollow to me.
Didn't someone win the F1 world championship once without ever winning a GP?

Rocksteadyeddie

7,971 posts

227 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
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Matt_N said:
How do people feel about Sagan taking the green jersey despite no stage wins?

I know thems the rules but it feels a bit hollow to me.
That he was unlucky. I'd be surprised if anyone had won it by such a distance, perhaps ever.

ewenm

28,506 posts

245 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
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Matt_N said:
How do people feel about Sagan taking the green jersey despite no stage wins?

I know thems the rules but it feels a bit hollow to me.
Not the first time it has happened and his consistency in the first week was amazing. I'm disappointed he didn't win a stage but it doesn't detract from the jersey and his retention of it IMO.

Highway Star

3,576 posts

231 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
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IMO, it doesn't matter a bit. It's a points jersey, not a sprinters jersey, so rewards consistency and high finishes throughout day-in, day-out, not just the sprint stages. Plenty of guys win it without being prolific stage winners or the fastest sprinters; Kelly and Hushovd spring to mind.

Although the best sprinter gets their own reward, through stage wins, I wouldn't mind if the organisers added in a 'sprints jersey' or 'sprints number' like the combativity red number and yellow team numbers - other Tours have a separate sprints jersey.

okgo

38,037 posts

198 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
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To me its similar to the KOM jersey going to a bloke who finished way down on GC. Doesn't matter I guess, but does feel a little odd.

Vocal Minority

Original Poster:

8,582 posts

152 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
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Ken Sington said:
Didn't someone win the F1 world championship once without ever winning a GP?
Not sure, I think Rosberg and Hawthorn only won one in their winning seasons though.

Have to say the green jersey issue doesn't bother me.

mcelliott

8,662 posts

181 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
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Some Gump said:
climbers?
What is this mythical creature that you speak of? Name me one genuine GC rider of the current crop that would fear (of losing time) a MTT in the middle of a grand tour, and how would it skew the overall classification. I'm sure the Tour organisers would counterbalance this by sticking in a fairly long, flat time trial, as they did in 1987. Team time trials have wreaked far more havoc to title chances in the past.

Gizmoish

18,150 posts

209 months

Tuesday 29th July 2014
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okgo said:
To me its similar to the KOM jersey going to a bloke who finished way down on GC. Doesn't matter I guess, but does feel a little odd.
But most of Majka's time losses were on the first few stages when he was working for Bertie.

No problem with Sagan winning green with no wins. Thems the rules. Hushovd did it too.

Sway

26,275 posts

194 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
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I'm going off Sagan. Whilst I fully appreciate its a points jersey, not a true sprinters jersey, the setup is such that essentially no-one bothers with it.

Leaving one guy/team, who have no other string to their bow, playing pissy little intermediate sprint games in the peloton whilst there's a breakaway, then wheelsucking the guy who really is bloody quick at the finish to get a few more points.

Yes, them's the rules and all that, but it should have a heavier emphasis on stage finishes on stages where a bunch sprint is likely, instead of random spots dotted through stages.

Perhaps my opprobrium is due to the loss of the spoof Sagan twitter account from a couple of years back!

Some Gump

12,690 posts

186 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
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I'm not so sure - IMo the points jersey is the "all rounder" competition - to me, sagan's non stop top 10 for a week is way more impressive than kittel's (already impressive) sprint tally.
I really don't see it as wheelsucking, most of the peloton can't keep up with kittel or kristoff either - to hold their wheel and come second is oretty impressive - 9 or 10 others tried to do the same and failed, after all.

Also, he does wheelies.

Leithen

10,887 posts

267 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
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He's a marked man in any breakaway too. They all know that he will outsprint them so they won't work with him. He desperately needs a teammate who can make it over some of the steeper stuff with him.

Gizmoish

18,150 posts

209 months

Wednesday 30th July 2014
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I see criterium season has started already and van Avermaet has won a race hehe

Sway

26,275 posts

194 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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anonymous said:
[redacted]
Struggling to see what it'd achieve?

He's not got the legs for a 1-2 man breakaway, larger breaks still wouldn't work with him even if he had a teammate or two with him. Can't come close to the 'proper' sprinters, most top lead out boys are quicker, so that's a waste. Can't TT or HC climb.

He's entertaining, and he'll undoubtedly get another green jersey or two, but more than that? Can't see it. Needs to develop a bit more sustained power for stage wins, like Cancellara, Voight or Martin.

He only gets second places cause he stays in the slipstream, if he popped out from behind the huge shield that is Kittel he'd fall away faster than the guys going for the win.

Vocal Minority

Original Poster:

8,582 posts

152 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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But what about stages like the Sheffield finish? Or stage 2 of last years tour? He can still be in contention at the finish when the likes of Kittel are losing ten minutes.

Surely he deserves credit for this? It places as big a part in it as the 5th/6th/7ths he picks up in intermediate sprints, if not more.

Rocksteadyeddie

7,971 posts

227 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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I can't believe we're talking about one of the most talented riders in the peloton like this. He just needs to figure out how to win. Poker playing is a large part of professional cycling and he's trying to play with his hand face up on the table all the time.

Highway Star

3,576 posts

231 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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Sway said:
Struggling to see what it'd achieve?

He's not got the legs for a 1-2 man breakaway, larger breaks still wouldn't work with him even if he had a teammate or two with him. Can't come close to the 'proper' sprinters, most top lead out boys are quicker, so that's a waste. Can't TT or HC climb.

He's entertaining, and he'll undoubtedly get another green jersey or two, but more than that? Can't see it. Needs to develop a bit more sustained power for stage wins, like Cancellara, Voight or Martin.

He only gets second places cause he stays in the slipstream, if he popped out from behind the huge shield that is Kittel he'd fall away faster than the guys going for the win.
Let's not get carried away here.

Sagan has won 4 Tour stages, all on road stages.

Cancellara 8, but only 2 weren't ITTs or prologues.

Martin has won 4, but 3 of those were ITTs.

Voigt? The guy only won two stages in something like 16 TDFs. Lots of failed breakaways.

For me, he's a classics man, Grand Tours aren't his thing. Stuff like Gent-Wevelgem, E3, Tour of Flanders - short, sharp hills you can power over and then win the sprint from a small group. Watch him in I think the E3 a couple of years ago - went with 10k or so to go and rode everyone off his wheel.



okgo

38,037 posts

198 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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Highway Star

3,576 posts

231 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtpQ_7Bj_YM

My favourite Sagan clip - sticking in up a climb and then eating one of the best descenders, Damiano Cunego, alive on the run in.

okgo

38,037 posts

198 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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He goes downhill well as he's so fat.

Rocksteadyeddie

7,971 posts

227 months

Thursday 31st July 2014
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okgo said:
He goes downhill well as he's so fat.
An expert speaks... wink