TVR S1 - fumes...looks like excessive blowby.
Discussion
I agree with the last 2 posts but I would add a little more.
It isnt that unusual for valve clearances on these engines to close up. If the engine does not have 'unleaded' heads and is run without additive then the valve can slowly recess themselves into the heads which closes the clearances. The valve cannot then close properly and the burning of valve and seat just increases. This can get quite dramatic when the process gets advanced and I would expect it to be on the exhaust valves. At the same time of course the exhaust valve itself will be burning away. The effect of the exhaust valves not seating would be massive pressure in the exhaust port and severe blow back around the exhaust valve stems. Any stem seals would be burnt out or blown out by now.
If the head gasket has gone, which is not a common issue with these engines as far as I am aware, then I would have expected some signs of oil in water or water in oil. Possibly the water loss you have had might have been caused by some initial pressuring of the water system caused by a head gasket starting to leak.
I agree that you are wasting your time messing with valve clearances. Whatever is wrong with that bank will need the head off. At the very least you have a badly burn valve and face to deal with.
Get the Ford Granada/Capri/Sierra V6 manual out and get stuck in!
It isnt that unusual for valve clearances on these engines to close up. If the engine does not have 'unleaded' heads and is run without additive then the valve can slowly recess themselves into the heads which closes the clearances. The valve cannot then close properly and the burning of valve and seat just increases. This can get quite dramatic when the process gets advanced and I would expect it to be on the exhaust valves. At the same time of course the exhaust valve itself will be burning away. The effect of the exhaust valves not seating would be massive pressure in the exhaust port and severe blow back around the exhaust valve stems. Any stem seals would be burnt out or blown out by now.
If the head gasket has gone, which is not a common issue with these engines as far as I am aware, then I would have expected some signs of oil in water or water in oil. Possibly the water loss you have had might have been caused by some initial pressuring of the water system caused by a head gasket starting to leak.
I agree that you are wasting your time messing with valve clearances. Whatever is wrong with that bank will need the head off. At the very least you have a badly burn valve and face to deal with.
Get the Ford Granada/Capri/Sierra V6 manual out and get stuck in!
Hello & Thanks for replies so far….progress painfully slow….but we have two young beautiful girls and its hard to get time in the garage….sure you’ve been there at some point !
Right…..So I agree with taking the Right hand head off for cylinders 4,5 & 6….but am still interested to see if checking and adjusting valve clearances would make any difference.
So, got out the Heath Bible (Blooming good read !)…..and it says “initially set the crankshaft pulley with the mark to the ‘O’ mark on the timing cover.”
Well, if it wasn’t bad enough moving the crank pulley bolt (awkward to get at….ended up using a 3/8 torque wrench and long hex head socket……is the mark on the crankshaft pulley like a triangle cut out (a notch?)…….shown at the 6 o clock position in the attached photo?
If this is ‘the notch’ on the crankshaft damper……where is the ‘O’ mark on the timing cover? as I cannot see this for looking and thought one of you guys might have a diagram or photo to help me please?
I’ve looked at a couple of explanations for setting the tappets, but if anyone has some tips on doing this (don’t mind the long way, but I want it to be right….if you get my drift- I’m a slow perfectionist !!) – it would be appreciated.
Last question….the book talks about making chalk marks at 120 degrees…….do you think these notches on the crankshaft pulley are there designed to do the same thing as they look very much like 120 degrees between spacing to me?
Thanks,
Chris
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Right…..So I agree with taking the Right hand head off for cylinders 4,5 & 6….but am still interested to see if checking and adjusting valve clearances would make any difference.
So, got out the Heath Bible (Blooming good read !)…..and it says “initially set the crankshaft pulley with the mark to the ‘O’ mark on the timing cover.”
Well, if it wasn’t bad enough moving the crank pulley bolt (awkward to get at….ended up using a 3/8 torque wrench and long hex head socket……is the mark on the crankshaft pulley like a triangle cut out (a notch?)…….shown at the 6 o clock position in the attached photo?
If this is ‘the notch’ on the crankshaft damper……where is the ‘O’ mark on the timing cover? as I cannot see this for looking and thought one of you guys might have a diagram or photo to help me please?
I’ve looked at a couple of explanations for setting the tappets, but if anyone has some tips on doing this (don’t mind the long way, but I want it to be right….if you get my drift- I’m a slow perfectionist !!) – it would be appreciated.
Last question….the book talks about making chalk marks at 120 degrees…….do you think these notches on the crankshaft pulley are there designed to do the same thing as they look very much like 120 degrees between spacing to me?
Thanks,
Chris
Computer is having a "paddy" and won't upload photo's but what you're looking for isn't underneath the engine it's up top at about 10 o'clock, a little metal thing screwed to the timing cover, its got lots of pointy bits. If it's not too thick with old oil and paint you may make out some numbers,starting from the top (nearest 12 0'clock) 3-0-3-6-9-12.
That's the 0 you're looking for.
There will be a small notch in the back rim of the pulley, if you're lucky it may have been painted yellow or white to make it easier to spot when using a timing light.
Take the spark plugs out, will make turning the engine over much easier.
PS adjusting tappets (valve clearances) ain't gonna cure your problem
Just trying to remove cylinder head on 4,5&6 side (LHS viewed from drivers side)......all exhaust bolts out easy, cylinder head bolts out - but blooming tight !!
Daft question- but can cylinder head be removed without removing the large Aluminium inlet manifold......I am guessing not !!
Thanks,
Chris
Daft question- but can cylinder head be removed without removing the large Aluminium inlet manifold......I am guessing not !!
Thanks,
Chris
Hello Again,
Head off at last !
Worryingly, Gasket seems in good condition. Looks to be no huge indication of head gasket failure between cylinders 5&6.....valves look OK - but carburised to some extent.
Cylinder bores do look worn (there is a ridge for about 10mm depthdown the bore)....but no stark difference between cylinder 4,5 & 6.
Next steps.....I was going to clean up the gasked (as it has some coolant on it).......and have a really good look at it to see if I can find any hint of head gasket failure.
))
My other intention would be measure the bore for wear (but haven't got the kit at the minute).
Looking for suggestions please......much appreciated !!
Regards,
Chris
Head off at last !
Worryingly, Gasket seems in good condition. Looks to be no huge indication of head gasket failure between cylinders 5&6.....valves look OK - but carburised to some extent.
Cylinder bores do look worn (there is a ridge for about 10mm depthdown the bore)....but no stark difference between cylinder 4,5 & 6.
Next steps.....I was going to clean up the gasked (as it has some coolant on it).......and have a really good look at it to see if I can find any hint of head gasket failure.
))
My other intention would be measure the bore for wear (but haven't got the kit at the minute).
Looking for suggestions please......much appreciated !!
Regards,
Chris
Check that head gasket, and the mating surfaces on head and block, for any sign of leaking.
You didn't say if all the plugs were in the same condition, or if any were wet or black.
Check that you have no broken valve springs - none of the valves should be loose.
Then put the spark plugs back in, and put the head upside down on some rags with the gasket face as level as possible.
Then fill each combustion champers with a little bit paraffin or fuel, and watch to see if it disappears - if it drains out of one or 2 cylinders more quickly, than those valves are leaking. If the paraffin just sits there, then valve seats are ok.
It might still be advisable to remove the valves and check visually though, and also check if any valves are either loose in their guides, or sticking or bent.
You didn't say if all the plugs were in the same condition, or if any were wet or black.
Check that you have no broken valve springs - none of the valves should be loose.
Then put the spark plugs back in, and put the head upside down on some rags with the gasket face as level as possible.
Then fill each combustion champers with a little bit paraffin or fuel, and watch to see if it disappears - if it drains out of one or 2 cylinders more quickly, than those valves are leaking. If the paraffin just sits there, then valve seats are ok.
It might still be advisable to remove the valves and check visually though, and also check if any valves are either loose in their guides, or sticking or bent.
Remember that you said the problem got worse quite quickly, which suggests that something failed rather thanj something got worn. I agree with tvrgit to use the paraffin test but you know already which cylinders you are looking at so dont waste time measuring bores; check the gasket carefully (these gaskets normally show pretty obvious signs if gas is passing between cylinders or from cylinders to the oil feed gallaries) then get the valves out of the suspect cylinder. You are going to have to get them out anyway. My guess is that you will find a very badly eroded valve face or seat, and/or a badly failed valve guide. Measuring bores comes later if you cannot find a fault on the head.
Hello All,
Bit of time on the car today.
Checked the cylinder head gasket for signs of leaking between cylinders.....but cannot see any evidence.
I then turned the head upside down and replaced the spark plugs. I then poured petrol into the combustion chamber in the head. The petrol did not move for a good 10 minutes..........I think it went down more through evaporation than valve seat leakage. With pressures as low as 40 psi I expected the petrol to go down quickly.
Would you still strip the head down to check for loose valves in the guides........or turn attention to the block?
Help and advice greatly received !!
Thanks,
Chris
Bit of time on the car today.
Checked the cylinder head gasket for signs of leaking between cylinders.....but cannot see any evidence.
I then turned the head upside down and replaced the spark plugs. I then poured petrol into the combustion chamber in the head. The petrol did not move for a good 10 minutes..........I think it went down more through evaporation than valve seat leakage. With pressures as low as 40 psi I expected the petrol to go down quickly.
Would you still strip the head down to check for loose valves in the guides........or turn attention to the block?
Help and advice greatly received !!
Thanks,
Chris
Chris
You are going to strip the head even if it is to lap the valve seats in again whilst the engine is apart. It would be rude not to. So you may see some valve guide or seat issues. However do some similar tests on the pistons/bores. 40psi means there is a problem somewhere.....
Cheers
Tony
You are going to strip the head even if it is to lap the valve seats in again whilst the engine is apart. It would be rude not to. So you may see some valve guide or seat issues. However do some similar tests on the pistons/bores. 40psi means there is a problem somewhere.....
Cheers
Tony
Totally agree with Tony, absolutely no point thinking of putting the head back without a strip down so just get on with it and get it apart!
However if you cannot see anything immediately then I would be speaking to the local engine builder and asking to take the bottom end in for him to check if the bores are now worn beyond limits. He may well identify evidence of broken rings. Remember a ring can break and merely stay in the groove in the piston, it will njot necessarily score the bore but an experienced eye will see signs of blow past on the cylinder.
Sorry mate but you are just going to have to bite the bullet and strip this engine down. Something has gone wrong to get compression figures that low and you say the bores appear quite worn so it would be false economy to think of putting the engine back without a thorough strip and check.
If money or time is tight, look for a good 2.8 engine on ebay as a temporary measure. I got one for peanuts and it has kept me going for two years while the other one has been waiting for a rebuild (now underway).
However if you cannot see anything immediately then I would be speaking to the local engine builder and asking to take the bottom end in for him to check if the bores are now worn beyond limits. He may well identify evidence of broken rings. Remember a ring can break and merely stay in the groove in the piston, it will njot necessarily score the bore but an experienced eye will see signs of blow past on the cylinder.
Sorry mate but you are just going to have to bite the bullet and strip this engine down. Something has gone wrong to get compression figures that low and you say the bores appear quite worn so it would be false economy to think of putting the engine back without a thorough strip and check.
If money or time is tight, look for a good 2.8 engine on ebay as a temporary measure. I got one for peanuts and it has kept me going for two years while the other one has been waiting for a rebuild (now underway).
greymrj said:
Totally agree with Tony, absolutely no point thinking of putting the head back without a strip down so just get on with it and get it apart!......
They're talking sense. You can also replace the valve stem oil seals and check your valve springs are in order. Also look very closely at the head for any cracks.
Hello guys,
Update: checked the bores, and there were signs of wear.....so I decided to buy a replacement engine and swap them over.
We'll I couldn't find a 2.8 easily local but did manage to pick up a 2.9 24 valve !
Going to be a steep learning curve I think.
Bought an engine hoist........first question is what do you guys use for lifting engines out these days.....chains or slings?
Sling looks to cause less damage and is portable more easily- and a lot cheaper than chain.....but chain will last a lifetime?
Opinions and buying recommendations please.
I will post a few pics next for interest.......I know you all like a good picture or two and a novice making a fool of himself !!
Update: checked the bores, and there were signs of wear.....so I decided to buy a replacement engine and swap them over.
We'll I couldn't find a 2.8 easily local but did manage to pick up a 2.9 24 valve !
Going to be a steep learning curve I think.
Bought an engine hoist........first question is what do you guys use for lifting engines out these days.....chains or slings?
Sling looks to cause less damage and is portable more easily- and a lot cheaper than chain.....but chain will last a lifetime?
Opinions and buying recommendations please.
I will post a few pics next for interest.......I know you all like a good picture or two and a novice making a fool of himself !!
cnprior said:
Hello guys,
Update: checked the bores, and there were signs of wear.....so I decided to buy a replacement engine and swap them over.
We'll I couldn't find a 2.8 easily local but did manage to pick up a 2.9 24 valve !
Going to be a steep learning curve I think.
Bought an engine hoist........first question is what do you guys use for lifting engines out these days.....chains or slings?
Sling looks to cause less damage and is portable more easily- and a lot cheaper than chain.....but chain will last a lifetime?
Opinions and buying recommendations please.
I will post a few pics next for interest.......I know you all like a good picture or two and a novice making a fool of himself !!
Chris,Update: checked the bores, and there were signs of wear.....so I decided to buy a replacement engine and swap them over.
We'll I couldn't find a 2.8 easily local but did manage to pick up a 2.9 24 valve !
Going to be a steep learning curve I think.
Bought an engine hoist........first question is what do you guys use for lifting engines out these days.....chains or slings?
Sling looks to cause less damage and is portable more easily- and a lot cheaper than chain.....but chain will last a lifetime?
Opinions and buying recommendations please.
I will post a few pics next for interest.......I know you all like a good picture or two and a novice making a fool of himself !!
It's going to be a very steep learning curve indeed methinks.
I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but things just got a whole lot more complicated.
Which vehicle did the 24v come from?
I ask because even if you have got all the ancilliaries to go with it, you are going to struggle to get it up & running in your 280S.
The engine loom will be completely different, as is the exhaust system ( does it need cats & lambda sensors? ), plus the various sensors, valves, afm's & ECU required for the fuel & ignition systems to get the 24v running, that are not present on your car.
If you are not getting your old engine refurbished, I would advise you to persevere with sourcing a known good 2.8 Cologne engine to avoid all the unnecessary extra hassle.
Re chain vs. slings: either will do, but a pair of slings of the correct rating is kinder to the item being lifted, but the lengths cannot be adjusted as easily as a chain and it requires care and knowledge of correct procedure to sling safely.
If you use a chain, you can avoid damage by using rags or bits of old carpet or something to pack between the chain & vulnerable parts.
Good luck.
P.S. Have you got yourself a Haynes manual which covers the engine?
i.e. any of Granada 2.8, Capri 2.8 or Sierra 2.8 manuals.
It would help enormously if you did.
Edited by glenrobbo on Thursday 2nd October 09:29
cnprior said:
Going to be a steep learning curve I think.
Oh yes! is it a BOA or a BOB version? one I believe is more suitable than the other?cnprior said:
Bought an engine hoist........first question is what do you guys use for lifting engines out these days.....chains or slings?
Couple of decent ratchet straps ( old seat belts were a favourite in my youth, long before ratchet straps were around)
Edited by phillpot on Thursday 2nd October 11:39
Hi Chris got to agree withj Glen (big time!).
I get the impression, apologies if I am wrong, that you are not that experienced as a mechanic. Fitting an engine with quite major differences isnt for the faint hearted. Even fitting a 2.9 to an S1 involves a very great deal of work, particularly as the electrics are very different. If you are not very experienced now it will be a very steep learning curve indeed and the costs are likely to be considerable and it is going to take a much bigger committment in time. It would be very interesting to hear the views of one of the members who have done this (successfully!).
If I was you I would be picking up a second hand 2.8 engine (been a couple on sale recently) and getting some experience of the car first. The 2.8 isnt exactly slow and it will take a great deal of financial and time pressure off your family.
I get the impression, apologies if I am wrong, that you are not that experienced as a mechanic. Fitting an engine with quite major differences isnt for the faint hearted. Even fitting a 2.9 to an S1 involves a very great deal of work, particularly as the electrics are very different. If you are not very experienced now it will be a very steep learning curve indeed and the costs are likely to be considerable and it is going to take a much bigger committment in time. It would be very interesting to hear the views of one of the members who have done this (successfully!).
If I was you I would be picking up a second hand 2.8 engine (been a couple on sale recently) and getting some experience of the car first. The 2.8 isnt exactly slow and it will take a great deal of financial and time pressure off your family.
Hi
Have to agree with the other guys it's a big job.
I have a friend who is doing it on an S3 and there's lots to do
Manifolds, reposition alternator and the engine is a different hight as well as everything that has been said
Replacing the same and refurbing the bits around it is a big enough job and you get to know the car
I'm just finishing a bottom up rebuilding and that was challenging in places
TVR's are not your average car and I have built a few cars in my time
Have to agree with the other guys it's a big job.
I have a friend who is doing it on an S3 and there's lots to do
Manifolds, reposition alternator and the engine is a different hight as well as everything that has been said
Replacing the same and refurbing the bits around it is a big enough job and you get to know the car
I'm just finishing a bottom up rebuilding and that was challenging in places
TVR's are not your average car and I have built a few cars in my time
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