Sold a car with faulty thermostats - my rights?
Discussion
Hi folks. My new (to me) E60 BMW 535d has knackered thermostats and doesn't get up to full operating temp when on the move. This is turn will lead to DPF issues if it isn't addressed. Had the car less than a week and finally managed to check this last night and this morning.
I have emailed the dealer, who explicitly told me via email that the thermostats were fine when I asked him to check, pre-purchase, and he wants (predictably) to go via the AA warranty we got with the car. I expected this, but am not thrilled after reading up on AA warranties. I have read tales of people being told to take their cars to the nearest Halfords for repairs, and this part of the T&C's fills me with dread:
I don't even mind if the AA pay the amount their nominated garage would charge and then I get the difference from the dealer, but would going via the warranty absolve the dealer of any obligation to put this right at no cost to me?
Interested in finding out if I am on the right track here?
I have emailed the dealer, who explicitly told me via email that the thermostats were fine when I asked him to check, pre-purchase, and he wants (predictably) to go via the AA warranty we got with the car. I expected this, but am not thrilled after reading up on AA warranties. I have read tales of people being told to take their cars to the nearest Halfords for repairs, and this part of the T&C's fills me with dread:
AA Warranty said:
5. AA Warranty reserve the right to agree or nominate a repairer. Should the
Dealer Care Extended Guarantee holder elect to take the vehicle to a repairer
other than that agreed or nominated, AA Warranty will accept the Dealer Care
Extended Guarantee holders choice. The liability in this case, will not exceed
the labour and components costs as charged by the nominated repairer. AA
Warranty reserve the right to remove the covered vehicle to a repairer of their
choosing.
Now I don't think that I am outside of my rights to want to take the car to BMW and have it put right then bill the dealer? I am happy enough to go via the warranty initially and see what they say, but if there's anything that I don't like about it, or they put up resistance to paying out, then I will pursue the dealer, as I believe SOGA covers me as far as being sold the car with a fault goes. Dealer Care Extended Guarantee holder elect to take the vehicle to a repairer
other than that agreed or nominated, AA Warranty will accept the Dealer Care
Extended Guarantee holders choice. The liability in this case, will not exceed
the labour and components costs as charged by the nominated repairer. AA
Warranty reserve the right to remove the covered vehicle to a repairer of their
choosing.
I don't even mind if the AA pay the amount their nominated garage would charge and then I get the difference from the dealer, but would going via the warranty absolve the dealer of any obligation to put this right at no cost to me?
Interested in finding out if I am on the right track here?
Edited by TroubledSoul on Thursday 26th September 15:24
Don't know about the legal side, but are you sure you have the fault diagnosed correctly?
Does the temp needle move at all? And, more importantly, do the water-hoses remain cold?
Unlikely to cause DPF probs as they just need hot exhaust gas to start burning off the crud rather than
hot cooling-system water.
Also, it has 2 thermostats does it? And they've both gone faulty at the same time?
If it were mine I'd take it to a Beemer specialist and just get a few minutes of their time to have a quick
look and see if they agree with a probable diagnosis and start from there.
I would urge you to have as good an idea as possible of what it might cost to fix, to give you an idea of
how much time/money you might like to spend persuing your complaint.
Does the temp needle move at all? And, more importantly, do the water-hoses remain cold?
Unlikely to cause DPF probs as they just need hot exhaust gas to start burning off the crud rather than
hot cooling-system water.
Also, it has 2 thermostats does it? And they've both gone faulty at the same time?
If it were mine I'd take it to a Beemer specialist and just get a few minutes of their time to have a quick
look and see if they agree with a probable diagnosis and start from there.
I would urge you to have as good an idea as possible of what it might cost to fix, to give you an idea of
how much time/money you might like to spend persuing your complaint.
ging84 said:
You bought a second hand BMW from an independent dealer, what makes you feel you have the right to have BMW fix it at the dealers expense ?
Because I have the right to have the car in the condition it was described as being in. Are you telling me that the dealer should not have to conform to the Sale of Goods Act?Honestly, it might seem fashionable to try and nit pick people on here these days, but in reality it's just sad.
Pete Eroleum said:
Don't know about the legal side, but are you sure you have the fault diagnosed correctly?
Does the temp needle move at all? And, more importantly, do the water-hoses remain cold?
Unlikely to cause DPF probs as they just need hot exhaust gas to start burning off the crud rather than
hot cooling-system water.
Also, it has 2 thermostats does it? And they've both gone faulty at the same time?
If it were mine I'd take it to a Beemer specialist and just get a few minutes of their time to have a quick
look and see if they agree with a probable diagnosis and start from there.
I would urge you to have as good an idea as possible of what it might cost to fix, to give you an idea of
how much time/money you might like to spend persuing your complaint.
I've owned many BMW's and this seems to be a common fault throughout the range. When one stat goes, the other usually follows.Does the temp needle move at all? And, more importantly, do the water-hoses remain cold?
Unlikely to cause DPF probs as they just need hot exhaust gas to start burning off the crud rather than
hot cooling-system water.
Also, it has 2 thermostats does it? And they've both gone faulty at the same time?
If it were mine I'd take it to a Beemer specialist and just get a few minutes of their time to have a quick
look and see if they agree with a probable diagnosis and start from there.
I would urge you to have as good an idea as possible of what it might cost to fix, to give you an idea of
how much time/money you might like to spend persuing your complaint.
I have diagnosed the fault using the hidden OBC menu, which gives a readout on the dash of the temp.
BMW have quoted £517 but that was just the stats. I'd like the water pump done too if all that is being done, but I would have no issue in paying for the water pump myself, seeing as it wouldn't strictly be necessary for resolution of the fault.
TroubledSoul said:
Because I have the right to have the car in the condition it was described as being in. Are you telling me that the dealer should not have to conform to the Sale of Goods Act?
Honestly, it might seem fashionable to try and nit pick people on here these days, but in reality it's just sad.
I think the point he is making is that it could be repairedfor less by an independent garage.Honestly, it might seem fashionable to try and nit pick people on here these days, but in reality it's just sad.
You didn't pay BMW main dealer prices when you bought it so you shouldn't expect BMW main dealer repairs when it needs fixing, unless of course it is a problem that can only be fixed by them.
Thermostats are are easy job surely?
TroubledSoul said:
Because I have the right to have the car in the condition it was described as being in. Are you telling me that the dealer should not have to conform to the Sale of Goods Act?
Honestly, it might seem fashionable to try and nit pick people on here these days, but in reality it's just sad.
You may have the right to have it repaired. You don't necessarily have the right to have it repaired where you choose.Honestly, it might seem fashionable to try and nit pick people on here these days, but in reality it's just sad.
Okay. But bear in mind main dealers charge 100+ per hour, my local one charges 120 per hour last time I checked.
This would mean that it's a fairly quick and easy job to do. I would go to a specialist for this every time.
They'll likely be less than half the hourly rate and be much more familiar with the common faults.
Remember that main-dealer fitters only really do repetitive servicing work on very young cars, charging the big
bucks per hour for what is pretty simple work really. Whereas specialists usually start to see them when they are
out of warranty, and nine times out of ten have missed a few services too while the owner dithers over where to
take it.
On such a low cost repair I'd take this opportunity to try and find a decent specialist garage as the risks in this
case are fairly small and the potential savings can be huge, particularly if you are going to keep it and need
regular servicing/maintenance.
I'd bet a pint this is really a £200 fix outside of main-dealer fairyland. And if it is, is it really worth
pursuing?
This would mean that it's a fairly quick and easy job to do. I would go to a specialist for this every time.
They'll likely be less than half the hourly rate and be much more familiar with the common faults.
Remember that main-dealer fitters only really do repetitive servicing work on very young cars, charging the big
bucks per hour for what is pretty simple work really. Whereas specialists usually start to see them when they are
out of warranty, and nine times out of ten have missed a few services too while the owner dithers over where to
take it.
On such a low cost repair I'd take this opportunity to try and find a decent specialist garage as the risks in this
case are fairly small and the potential savings can be huge, particularly if you are going to keep it and need
regular servicing/maintenance.
I'd bet a pint this is really a £200 fix outside of main-dealer fairyland. And if it is, is it really worth
pursuing?
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And I'm not spikey at all, I just hate people being so quick to have a go on here these days.
I'm happy to take it to a specialist, that's really not a problem. I only said BMW as they are nearby and it's easier in all honesty.
For the record, I haven't said anything remote threatening or that would get the dealer's back up. I've simply let him know I have discovered the fault, said I can understand how it may have been missed, and what would he like to do to resolve it?
Pretty friendly stuff in all honesty.
He's asked me to go via warranty, and I understand why he would, but he has now told me he'd wait a couple of weeks before contacting the warranty co. which smacks to me of him not wanting them to say "it must have been faulty when you bought it and is the dealer's problem".
I've got no reason to be funny with him unless he starts fobbing me off and refusing to help.
TroubledSoul said:
He's asked me to go via warranty, and I understand why he would, but he has now told me he'd wait a couple of weeks before contacting the warranty co. which smacks to me of him not wanting them to say "it must have been faulty when you bought it and is the dealer's problem".
They'll be a clause in his policy... anything in x weeks is his responsibility. It's to stop them using the warranty to pay for car they bought and sold as defective. Basically the situation you have.Oh and just to add, it does have FSH. Mainly BMW but specialist more recently. In fact it went through a service just 3k ago which is quite annoying as you'd have hoped they would have detected this.
I've always used specialists to be honest so I do know how much cheaper they are generally and I've always liked dealing with them. As I say, the BMW dealer is much nearer to me than the nearest reputable specialist, which is why I'd prefer going there.
I would of course be happy to travel to save a couple of hundred quid if the warranty co. asked for that. It really wouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't accept a request to take it to a Halfords Autocentre.
My main worry is that dealing with the warranty co. may absolve the dealer of his responsibility to make it right.
I've always used specialists to be honest so I do know how much cheaper they are generally and I've always liked dealing with them. As I say, the BMW dealer is much nearer to me than the nearest reputable specialist, which is why I'd prefer going there.
I would of course be happy to travel to save a couple of hundred quid if the warranty co. asked for that. It really wouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't accept a request to take it to a Halfords Autocentre.
My main worry is that dealing with the warranty co. may absolve the dealer of his responsibility to make it right.
valais said:
They'll be a clause in his policy... anything in x weeks is his responsibility. It's to stop them using the warranty to pay for car they bought and sold as defective. Basically the situation you have.
That's what I thought. So I will contact them, expecting to be rebuffed and then will go back to him. TroubledSoul said:
Hi folks. My new (to me) E60 BMW 535d has knackered thermostats and doesn't get up to full operating temp when on the move. This is turn will lead to DPF issues if it isn't addressed. Had the car less than a week and finally managed to check this last night and this morning.
I have emailed the dealer, who explicitly told me via email that the thermostats were fine when I asked him to check, pre-purchase, and he wants (predictably) to go via the AA warranty we got with the car. I expected this, but am not thrilled after reading up on AA warranties. I have read tales of people being told to take their cars to the nearest Halfords for repairs, and this part of the T&C's fills me with dread:
I don't even mind if the AA pay the amount their nominated garage would charge and then I get the difference from the dealer, but would going via the warranty absolve the dealer of any obligation to put this right at no cost to me?
Interested in finding out if I am on the right track here?
Let me further add to your problems unfortunately.I have emailed the dealer, who explicitly told me via email that the thermostats were fine when I asked him to check, pre-purchase, and he wants (predictably) to go via the AA warranty we got with the car. I expected this, but am not thrilled after reading up on AA warranties. I have read tales of people being told to take their cars to the nearest Halfords for repairs, and this part of the T&C's fills me with dread:
AA Warranty said:
5. AA Warranty reserve the right to agree or nominate a repairer. Should the
Dealer Care Extended Guarantee holder elect to take the vehicle to a repairer
other than that agreed or nominated, AA Warranty will accept the Dealer Care
Extended Guarantee holders choice. The liability in this case, will not exceed
the labour and components costs as charged by the nominated repairer. AA
Warranty reserve the right to remove the covered vehicle to a repairer of their
choosing.
Now I don't think that I am outside of my rights to want to take the car to BMW and have it put right then bill the dealer? I am happy enough to go via the warranty initially and see what they say, but if there's anything that I don't like about it, or they put up resistance to paying out, then I will pursue the dealer, as I believe SOGA covers me as far as being sold the car with a fault goes. Dealer Care Extended Guarantee holder elect to take the vehicle to a repairer
other than that agreed or nominated, AA Warranty will accept the Dealer Care
Extended Guarantee holders choice. The liability in this case, will not exceed
the labour and components costs as charged by the nominated repairer. AA
Warranty reserve the right to remove the covered vehicle to a repairer of their
choosing.
I don't even mind if the AA pay the amount their nominated garage would charge and then I get the difference from the dealer, but would going via the warranty absolve the dealer of any obligation to put this right at no cost to me?
Interested in finding out if I am on the right track here?
Edited by TroubledSoul on Thursday 26th September 15:24
We now absolutely refuse to carry out work on cars under the AA warranty scheme. They will not pay the appropriate labour charge: they only pay out the Autodata times. In other words if Autodata states that the labour charge to do the thermostats on your car is say, 2.5 hours, that's what they pay and not a penny more. If for example you had a seized or sheared stud in the head or block and it took another 4 hours to get it out, that's tough. It's down to you to pay the difference.
This of course is totally unacceptable, and is in fact a con. Anyone who runs a repair shop will confirm that the Autodata times are highly theoretical and can almost never be attained. The AA know that as well, but carry on regardless.
Be aware!!
J
TroubledSoul said:
Now I don't think that I am outside of my rights to want to take the car to BMW and have it put right then bill the dealer? I am happy enough to go via the warranty initially and see what they say, but if there's anything that I don't like about it, or they put up resistance to paying out, then I will pursue the dealer, as I believe SOGA covers me as far as being sold the car with a fault goes.
I think you're outside of your rights.IF the dealer accepts that he needs to get the thermostats done (and it is an if) then he can get that work done to a suitable standard where he chooses - it certainly doesn't have to be at BMW, unless they're only ones that can do it.
How can you prove that the car was sold with faulty thermostats? It passed a dealer inspection - how can you prove they haven't been damaged during the week you've had it?
Muzzer79 said:
TroubledSoul said:
Now I don't think that I am outside of my rights to want to take the car to BMW and have it put right then bill the dealer? I am happy enough to go via the warranty initially and see what they say, but if there's anything that I don't like about it, or they put up resistance to paying out, then I will pursue the dealer, as I believe SOGA covers me as far as being sold the car with a fault goes.
I think you're outside of your rights.IF the dealer accepts that he needs to get the thermostats done (and it is an if) then he can get that work done to a suitable standard where he chooses - it certainly doesn't have to be at BMW, unless they're only ones that can do it.
How can you prove that the car was sold with faulty thermostats? It passed a dealer inspection - how can you prove they haven't been damaged during the week you've had it?
Surely that won't wash?
In all fairness, I have said that I'd be happy for a specialist to do it. I'd actually be a bit sceptical about letting the dealer do it or have one of his preferred garages do it, but know that if he insisted then I might have to bite the bullet on that one.
TroubledSoul said:
Muzzer79 said:
TroubledSoul said:
Now I don't think that I am outside of my rights to want to take the car to BMW and have it put right then bill the dealer? I am happy enough to go via the warranty initially and see what they say, but if there's anything that I don't like about it, or they put up resistance to paying out, then I will pursue the dealer, as I believe SOGA covers me as far as being sold the car with a fault goes.
I think you're outside of your rights.IF the dealer accepts that he needs to get the thermostats done (and it is an if) then he can get that work done to a suitable standard where he chooses - it certainly doesn't have to be at BMW, unless they're only ones that can do it.
How can you prove that the car was sold with faulty thermostats? It passed a dealer inspection - how can you prove they haven't been damaged during the week you've had it?
Surely that won't wash?
You should not be claiming on your warranty for a fault that was present at the time of sale.
The only thing you need to do is contact the dealer and agree a time for you to drop the car off for them to arrange a repair, hopefully they will give you a courtesy car to use in the mean time.
You could come to an arrangement that a new water pump is fitted at your expense at the same time if you want.
it is a common fault on these engines.
I have a warranty/Parts cover with the AA and i have never taken it to Halfords, and have always managed to go to the main dealer. I had to pay the bill, and submit a claim tot eh the AA which is paid by cheque within 7 days.
Key point - enure you get approval prior to the work being done.
So far had a turbo hose, driveshaft, breather pipe and a coil spring covered.
I have a warranty/Parts cover with the AA and i have never taken it to Halfords, and have always managed to go to the main dealer. I had to pay the bill, and submit a claim tot eh the AA which is paid by cheque within 7 days.
Key point - enure you get approval prior to the work being done.
So far had a turbo hose, driveshaft, breather pipe and a coil spring covered.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff