ecu choices duratec turbo
Discussion
I am in need of an ecu to run a single turbo V6 Duratec in a 2003 Mondeo.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
My only experience of non standard ecu`s is the J.E. unit in my Capri(RV8) and those piggyback jobbies I seemed to remove a lot of back in the 90`s
Also more importantly,someone who will set it up properly,
Anywhere south of the M6 is good for me.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
My only experience of non standard ecu`s is the J.E. unit in my Capri(RV8) and those piggyback jobbies I seemed to remove a lot of back in the 90`s
Also more importantly,someone who will set it up properly,
Anywhere south of the M6 is good for me.
stevieturbo said:
As stated in every other similar request....
Budget ?
Full supply and fit ?
What exactly do you need of the ecu ?
Basic engine controls ? Launch ? Traction ? etc
What use is the vehicle ? Road ? Track ?
Power expectations ?
When you don't know ECUs it's difficult to know what you want. Maybe you could take time to type out a Puma-length post on what to look out for or how to choose? Then when anyone rocks up with the same old question we can just point them in that direction.Budget ?
Full supply and fit ?
What exactly do you need of the ecu ?
Basic engine controls ? Launch ? Traction ? etc
What use is the vehicle ? Road ? Track ?
Power expectations ?
'Go see Stevies post, he is the ECU guru'
stevieturbo said:
As stated in every other similar request....
Budget ?
Full supply and fit ?
What exactly do you need of the ecu ?
Basic engine controls ? Launch ? Traction ? etc
What use is the vehicle ? Road ? Track ?
Power expectations ?
Sorry,I didnt really want to clutter the question with un-needed information and to be honest expected a more general answer.Budget ?
Full supply and fit ?
What exactly do you need of the ecu ?
Basic engine controls ? Launch ? Traction ? etc
What use is the vehicle ? Road ? Track ?
Power expectations ?
And assume from that that the differing models/makes offer specific advantages over others.
The car will see mainly road use plus the odd track day and to tow my car trailer.
The engine is the ST220 unit.
My main criteria is refinement really,what one will,given the correct mapping will give me the nicest overall feel.
No launch control but the switchable traction would be nice to keep and even possibly adjust, also the ability to link up the cruise control.
I would prefer just a kit supplied and my power expectations are around 300 bhp.
But refinement is a must.
As to cost,
I`m not wishing to fit a system that has capabilities far beyond my needs.
The ford system uses very little in the way of inputs but as the cost of engine internals alone has exploded beyond the original whole build budget it`s now irrelevant,to a degree.
Plus:
I was advised that a single GT28 type turbo is the one to use and is the one I have intentions of fitting up the engine bay and pipework around pretty soon,please feel free to throw a spanner in my works now if you feel this is not the route to take.
There is no room at the rear to enable a twin set up. and I don`t fancy one of those belt drive kits.
Edited by shoehorn on Saturday 19th October 15:58
Edited by shoehorn on Saturday 19th October 16:05
Evoluzione said:
When you don't know ECUs it's difficult to know what you want. Maybe you could take time to type out a Puma-length post on what to look out for or how to choose? Then when anyone rocks up with the same old question we can just point them in that direction.
'Go see Stevies post, he is the ECU guru'
I'm certainly no guru.'Go see Stevies post, he is the ECU guru'
Cant be bothered really, and it's not knowing ecu's on their own, but also not knowing specifics about your setup too, and what is actually needed or wanted. So there are too many questions that may go unanswered.
Then followed by a statement like "The ford system uses very little in the way of inputs"...well, again this could lead into one of those, how long is a piece of string questions.
All basic engines will use the same basic inputs. That's a given. The more you want from the engine, the more you may need.
If you do add traction control to that wish list, clearly you need some chassis inputs too...ie wheel speeds, generally at least 3. ie 2 driven and one undriven.
Variable cam timing ? DBW ? Is there much emissions control equipment needing to be retained ?
So slowly you start adding more and more ( and more cost both in terms of hardware and installation/tuning )
Then you need to choose an ecu that will hopefully work with all the factory sensors, to save buying more. Although most should be ok there.
Then you also need to consider number of outputs. Injectors, coils, idle control, boost control, fans, pumps, air-con, cam control, DBW if fitted etc etc. There will be more.
Knock monitoring or control ? Wideband lambda or control ? Add oil pressure, fuel pressure, oil temp, EGT...and again, these are just basics.
How much of the above can be monitored and logged on board with the ecu, and will either need some form of external controller ? ( as many do as far as wideband lambda goes. So if it needs an external controller that's further cost if it is needed or wanted )
So ecu might be cheaper without some stuff, but if you then need to supply it externally, cost jumps back up.
Then following from those....can any of the above be used for engine safety in the event of a problem ? Some ecu's simply record and log these things. Others will allow you to cause a limp mode or even full engine shutdown if things go strange
It's one of those things you pay a bit extra for, and it seems frivolous, and 95% of the time it maybe is. But if it saves an engine, that could save thousands.
Your desire to keep cruise control. That will be much trickier, but would depend how much was done directly by the ecu, or if there was some sort of external controller.
And is the car mechanical throttle, or DBW ? Which again can add a lot of cost, and a lot more inputs/outputs required.
Unless it is all controlled by the ecu, the ecu has clutch and brake inputs, DBW and maybe some other inputs, I think retaining cruise control might be one of the more difficult requests. Very few aftermarket ecu's even offer it as an option.
Then usage....not so much multiple maps. But how many boost options, boost control options. ie boost by gear etc
If you have traction control, then you'd need some user adjustability too, for wet, dry, different setups
It can get a bit more involved than you might think initially
You can get a cheap ecu that will run an engine, but running an engine is the easy bit. Performing all the above, and then adding the refinement you seek is where the difficulty lies, and usually expense.
Although most ecu's will be capable of doing a pretty good job. For the most part idle control, low speed driving, hot/cold start are all the hard things to get close to OEM, and where sometimes the more expensive ecu's just offer that little bit more control.
But no matter what ecu you use, you're also at the mercy of whoever is setting it up. Get that wrong, and no ecu will save you.
shoehorn said:
I am in need of an ecu to run a single turbo V6 Duratec in a 2003 Mondeo.
Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
My only experience of non standard ecu`s is the J.E. unit in my Capri(RV8) and those piggyback jobbies I seemed to remove a lot of back in the 90`s
Also more importantly,someone who will set it up properly,
Anywhere south of the M6 is good for me.
I run a single turbo v6 duratec and have fitted a motec m800.... I wanted full safeties etc.Any suggestions greatly appreciated.
My only experience of non standard ecu`s is the J.E. unit in my Capri(RV8) and those piggyback jobbies I seemed to remove a lot of back in the 90`s
Also more importantly,someone who will set it up properly,
Anywhere south of the M6 is good for me.
I used to run an mbe unit which is relatively cheap but less people have the codes to map it.
Can I ask what your plans etc are and how far along you are?, my single turbo engine is in a noble but I also have an st220 and have considered converting :-)
andygtt said:
I run a single turbo v6 duratec and have fitted a motec m800.... I wanted full safeties etc.
I used to run an mbe unit which is relatively cheap but less people have the codes to map it.
Can I ask what your plans etc are and how far along you are?, my single turbo engine is in a noble but I also have an st220 and have considered converting :-)
Almost fully mocked up(one of my wifes 07 diesels died so I stripped that and used the front end for my mock up using a spare engine/trans)apart from the y pipe to join the ex manifolds asI used to run an mbe unit which is relatively cheap but less people have the codes to map it.
Can I ask what your plans etc are and how far along you are?, my single turbo engine is in a noble but I also have an st220 and have considered converting :-)
I am still undecided as to whether I should retain the standard water pump set up or not,which will determine my final positioning of the turbo its self.
the turbo will sit above the gearbox,where the now relocated battery,airbox and fusebox once sat.
The exhaust out pipe runs down the front and follows roughly the path of the original front pipe.
The engine is nearly complete with all forged internals,sticking with 10:1 c/r and I`m using a Quaife atb equipped MTX75,with 2.5 v6 ratios using a solid ST200 flywheel.
I bought MSDS manifolds but they go too far down to be useful so I butchered them to suit for a pattern for some custom made ones and are currently waiting for them to be finished.
I have fabricated a large g/fibre airbox to sit below the n/s headlight with cold air feed from the upper grille,using an off the shelf paper filter from a hyundai,the battery sits in the boot side panel and the small fuse box is now between the inner and outer wing.
I have still to work out an intercooler and piping to and from but as there is acres of space behind ST bumpers there should be no issue with either and why I have not yet bothered.
Edited by shoehorn on Monday 21st October 16:57
[quote=stevieturbo]
/quote]
Thanks for replying,I had considered the points made,that is what led me to ask in the first place,a sort of solving 1 problem raises another 2 conundrum,if you get my drift.
The Mmndeo ST V6 engine control system as standard is really very simple in comparison to most cars even of that era,no dbw,vvt,egr,manifold flaps.... and apart from the knock sensor and cam signal,the system its self is no more modern or complicated than the Lucas/J.E.system on my RV8 Capri.
Pre 2004 Mondeos have very little in the way of can bus etc.to complicate things.
Most outputs like the fans etc.have their own modules and need simple on/off only,even cruise control uses very little input from the engine controller.
They were simple enough to need to resort to using an extra PSA ecu to run the earlier diesels,leaving the ford unit in place for fan,ac control,etc. and the PSA unit to do the important bits as the Ford system was not modern or capable enough apparently.
I want something that will give decent boost control and importantly,protection for the engine,will give me the option of 2-3 maps,be capable of running as much of the `extra` systems as possible,reliability and refinement.
I don`t wish to fiddle with it myself once it is fitted,all without wasting money fitting a system that is over qualified for my needs,or over complicated for the sake of it,
in that it requires sensors,wires and solenoids to rival an airbus
to achieve an extra 1-2 hp over a much simpler system.
Apart from it actually working,refinement is my main concern and surely it stands to reason that the system that offers better facility for greater refinement will by that virtue also be one that accommodates a greater range of options for what goes in and out and how that is able to be dealt with.
I understand the functions of the ecu and how it uses the information for decisions and the basic functions are quite simple,it`s the finesse that is tricky.
I have no computer/digital/electronic knowledge as to how all that is achieved internally but like anything,the end result depending on the quality of the materials,is all down to how it is implemented in the first place.
Is the level of refinement achievable directly linked,as I suspect to the quantity of information it receives,i.e. more sensors and controllers,
is it achieved by better compatibility with the vehicles sensors,(I am guessing that would be software)
or is it just quality of materials/all of the above?
So what system would offer me the greatest control over the functioning of the engine with the simplest possible set up to achieve my aim,whatever that set up within reason may require?
I am not against having to fit the odd module or extra sensor if a specific one required so.
I understand wiring,have made a few looms in the past and so on,so that aspect is of no concern.
The actual ecu side of it is my grey area,in so much of what is needed because of little experience with them and the diversity of choice,coupled with my desire for a specific need,given that they all state the same claims.
I thought this was going to get very technical,
I had visions of That Max Torque fella posting and advising I choose the right digital pulse flux capacitor level refresh frequency pulse speeds and such stuff that only him and 5 other people in the world understand
/quote]
Thanks for replying,I had considered the points made,that is what led me to ask in the first place,a sort of solving 1 problem raises another 2 conundrum,if you get my drift.
The Mmndeo ST V6 engine control system as standard is really very simple in comparison to most cars even of that era,no dbw,vvt,egr,manifold flaps.... and apart from the knock sensor and cam signal,the system its self is no more modern or complicated than the Lucas/J.E.system on my RV8 Capri.
Pre 2004 Mondeos have very little in the way of can bus etc.to complicate things.
Most outputs like the fans etc.have their own modules and need simple on/off only,even cruise control uses very little input from the engine controller.
They were simple enough to need to resort to using an extra PSA ecu to run the earlier diesels,leaving the ford unit in place for fan,ac control,etc. and the PSA unit to do the important bits as the Ford system was not modern or capable enough apparently.
I want something that will give decent boost control and importantly,protection for the engine,will give me the option of 2-3 maps,be capable of running as much of the `extra` systems as possible,reliability and refinement.
I don`t wish to fiddle with it myself once it is fitted,all without wasting money fitting a system that is over qualified for my needs,or over complicated for the sake of it,
in that it requires sensors,wires and solenoids to rival an airbus
to achieve an extra 1-2 hp over a much simpler system.Apart from it actually working,refinement is my main concern and surely it stands to reason that the system that offers better facility for greater refinement will by that virtue also be one that accommodates a greater range of options for what goes in and out and how that is able to be dealt with.
I understand the functions of the ecu and how it uses the information for decisions and the basic functions are quite simple,it`s the finesse that is tricky.
I have no computer/digital/electronic knowledge as to how all that is achieved internally but like anything,the end result depending on the quality of the materials,is all down to how it is implemented in the first place.
Is the level of refinement achievable directly linked,as I suspect to the quantity of information it receives,i.e. more sensors and controllers,
is it achieved by better compatibility with the vehicles sensors,(I am guessing that would be software)
or is it just quality of materials/all of the above?
So what system would offer me the greatest control over the functioning of the engine with the simplest possible set up to achieve my aim,whatever that set up within reason may require?
I am not against having to fit the odd module or extra sensor if a specific one required so.
I understand wiring,have made a few looms in the past and so on,so that aspect is of no concern.
The actual ecu side of it is my grey area,in so much of what is needed because of little experience with them and the diversity of choice,coupled with my desire for a specific need,given that they all state the same claims.
I thought this was going to get very technical,
I had visions of That Max Torque fella posting and advising I choose the right digital pulse flux capacitor level refresh frequency pulse speeds and such stuff that only him and 5 other people in the world understand
Not sure why you would go forged internals for 300bhp... The stock ford pistons run reliably to 500bhp in nobles, they just fit decent shorter con rods to get a lower cr.
I have forged internals, but then I run 700bhp on my single turbo.... If you have turbocharged make sure you have fitted oil squirters to underside of pistons.
In fact only mechanical difference between a noble and stock st220 is oiled squirters and arrow shorter con rods and the timing to the exhaust cam is changed by 1 tooth.
Should be noted my monster engine makes more power than a stock st200 everywhere, from 2500rpm to 8000rpm so you won't 'loose' significsntly low down by having a lower cr.
As say the noble runs mbe and you could also buy a loom from one.
I have forged internals, but then I run 700bhp on my single turbo.... If you have turbocharged make sure you have fitted oil squirters to underside of pistons.
In fact only mechanical difference between a noble and stock st220 is oiled squirters and arrow shorter con rods and the timing to the exhaust cam is changed by 1 tooth.
Should be noted my monster engine makes more power than a stock st200 everywhere, from 2500rpm to 8000rpm so you won't 'loose' significsntly low down by having a lower cr.
As say the noble runs mbe and you could also buy a loom from one.
andygtt said:
Not sure why you would go forged internals for 300bhp... The stock ford pistons run reliably to 500bhp in nobles, they just fit decent shorter con rods to get a lower cr.
I have forged internals, but then I run 700bhp on my single turbo.... If you have turbocharged make sure you have fitted oil squirters to underside of pistons.
In fact only mechanical difference between a noble and stock st220 is oiled squirters and arrow shorter con rods and the timing to the exhaust cam is changed by 1 tooth.
Should be noted my monster engine makes more power than a stock st200 everywhere, from 2500rpm to 8000rpm so you won't 'loose' significsntly low down by having a lower cr.
As say the noble runs mbe and you could also buy a loom from one.
I used forged internals as The engine was built from a scrap one that had piston/rod failure and as you know the powdered rods are next to useless and seem to cause most failures of these engines.I have forged internals, but then I run 700bhp on my single turbo.... If you have turbocharged make sure you have fitted oil squirters to underside of pistons.
In fact only mechanical difference between a noble and stock st220 is oiled squirters and arrow shorter con rods and the timing to the exhaust cam is changed by 1 tooth.
Should be noted my monster engine makes more power than a stock st200 everywhere, from 2500rpm to 8000rpm so you won't 'loose' significsntly low down by having a lower cr.
As say the noble runs mbe and you could also buy a loom from one.
I have also heard witness or veiwed plenty of others where the original hypereutectic pistons break around the top ring land and separate,evenon standard motors.
My block had slight damage to the middle rear liner and o/s pistons was really the only way to go,easily obtainable from the US in varying sizes and seeing as I was changing them anyway,then why not as It also gives scope to any possible future modifications that I may consider further on.
My quote of 300bhp is a figure that I would be happy with anything above and beyond that attainable sensibly,simply and safely will be a bonus.
shoehorn said:
Plus:
I was advised that a single GT28 type turbo is the one to use
Is that not a bit small for a 3 litre, or are you just feeding it from one bank? I know you only want 300hp, but I guess you want a broad power band?I was advised that a single GT28 type turbo is the one to use
I used a 0.82 T3 GT3071R a VAG 2.8 V6 and it ran out of puff at 5500rpm.
Shame you can't reverse the heads or something and have all 6 runners converge in the middle of the Vee, then strap GT35R on
As for an ECU, I had a good luck with a DTA S80 + STC controller running this turbo motor. DBW, full sequential (pencil coils and injection), continuously variable intake and exhaust cam timing, dual wideband, the lot. I didn't bother with launch, traction or boost control, but it has those functions built in.
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Tuesday 22 October 15:21
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Tuesday 22 October 15:22
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Is that not a bit small for a 3 litre, or are you just feeding it from one bank? I know you only want 300hp, but I guess you want a broad power band?
I used a 0.82 T3 GT3071R a VAG 2.8 V6 and it ran out of puff at 5500rpm.
Shame you can't reverse the heads or something and have all 6 runners converge in the middle of the Vee, then strap GT35R on
As for an ECU, I had a good luck with a DTA S80 + STC controller running this turbo motor. DBW, full sequential (pencil coils and injection), continuously variable intake and exhaust cam timing, dual wideband, the lot. I didn't bother with launch, traction or boost control, but it has those functions built in.
Sorry,my fault,spent so long researching turbos that GT28 seems to stick in my head for some reason.I used a 0.82 T3 GT3071R a VAG 2.8 V6 and it ran out of puff at 5500rpm.
Shame you can't reverse the heads or something and have all 6 runners converge in the middle of the Vee, then strap GT35R on
As for an ECU, I had a good luck with a DTA S80 + STC controller running this turbo motor. DBW, full sequential (pencil coils and injection), continuously variable intake and exhaust cam timing, dual wideband, the lot. I didn't bother with launch, traction or boost control, but it has those functions built in.
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Tuesday 22 October 15:21
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Tuesday 22 October 15:22
I am hoping to use a 0.82 GT3076RS which I already have(swapped for a MK2 Consul inlet manifold,rear glass and leaf springs)but not fitted as I have no y-pipe or actual final position for the turbo.
It is feeding from both banks and I would like a broad spread of power,do you think the turbo I am using will be too small for my use?
I was under the assumption that a GT35 would be too big.
GT35 would be ok on the engine, only slightly smaller to what I run and mine isnt laggy and makes more power than a stock ST220 everywhere including low down dispite the low CR... BUT I am running twice the output you want and rev to 8000rpm so would be way oversize for what you seem to want.
IMO at GT30 will be more than ok for yours but please make sure you spec the exhaust housing carefully.
now understand why you swopped out the pistons... have you put piston squirters in? I wouldnt run a turbo package on the engine without them.
lots of the noble owners swopped the mbe for omex ecu's so thats a good choice.... do you have a budget in mind? as a guide my motec has cost 5k and still going up as I add functions. Omex will be cheaper but it will be thousands rather than hundreds.
IMO at GT30 will be more than ok for yours but please make sure you spec the exhaust housing carefully.
now understand why you swopped out the pistons... have you put piston squirters in? I wouldnt run a turbo package on the engine without them.
lots of the noble owners swopped the mbe for omex ecu's so thats a good choice.... do you have a budget in mind? as a guide my motec has cost 5k and still going up as I add functions. Omex will be cheaper but it will be thousands rather than hundreds.
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