How should I be sitting?
Discussion
It occurred to me that I don't really know how to sit properly in the car. All I do, is get myself relatively comfy, check I can see things in the mirrors and off I go.
What exactly should I be able to see in the door mirrors, for instance? How much of my car's bodywork should I see (I think I remember my instructor telling me half of the width of the mirror glass should be my own car, and the rest should be road / surroundings)?
I find my forearms ache if I drive any distance with my hands at 10-2... is it likely I have the steering wheel set too high?
Any pointers on what I should be looking out for, to make sure I'm sat correctly?
What exactly should I be able to see in the door mirrors, for instance? How much of my car's bodywork should I see (I think I remember my instructor telling me half of the width of the mirror glass should be my own car, and the rest should be road / surroundings)?
I find my forearms ache if I drive any distance with my hands at 10-2... is it likely I have the steering wheel set too high?
Any pointers on what I should be looking out for, to make sure I'm sat correctly?
SebastienClement said:
It occurred to me that I don't really know how to sit properly in the car. All I do, is get myself relatively comfy, check I can see things in the mirrors and off I go.
What exactly should I be able to see in the door mirrors, for instance? How much of my car's bodywork should I see (I think I remember my instructor telling me half of the width of the mirror glass should be my own car, and the rest should be road / surroundings)?
I find my forearms ache if I drive any distance with my hands at 10-2... is it likely I have the steering wheel set too high?
Any pointers on what I should be looking out for, to make sure I'm sat correctly?
I ensure that I can press the clutch pedal full travel, and that gets me a suitable fore and aft position of the seat.What exactly should I be able to see in the door mirrors, for instance? How much of my car's bodywork should I see (I think I remember my instructor telling me half of the width of the mirror glass should be my own car, and the rest should be road / surroundings)?
I find my forearms ache if I drive any distance with my hands at 10-2... is it likely I have the steering wheel set too high?
Any pointers on what I should be looking out for, to make sure I'm sat correctly?
Then I adjust the outside mirrors so that I can just see a bit of my own car in them, and the remaining field of view (i.e. most of it) allows me to see other things.
As for hand positions on the steering wheel, I prefer 9-3 rather than 10-2, as I find it more comfortable and less tiring.
Agree with 9-3 rather than 10-2. 
Just to clarify, you should still have a slight bend at the knee with clutch fully depressed.
I'd add you should have middle of head restraint level with your ears/eyes.
Stretch arms out (slight bend) and rest wrists on steering wheel. This should be comfortable and allow good steering.
Just to clarify, you should still have a slight bend at the knee with clutch fully depressed.
I'd add you should have middle of head restraint level with your ears/eyes.
Stretch arms out (slight bend) and rest wrists on steering wheel. This should be comfortable and allow good steering.
SebastienClement said:
What exactly should I be able to see in the door mirrors, for instance? How much of my car's bodywork should I see (I think I remember my instructor telling me half of the width of the mirror glass should be my own car, and the rest should be road / surroundings)?
Half the mirror sounds too much. Some of the body side, yes - you want to ensure that there's no blind spot inside the mirror's view, and give yourself some frame of reference, but there's no point in losing too much mirror to bodywork.Your leg should be about fully extended, but without extending your foot, when the clutch is on the floor. That will set where you need to have the base of the seat. Arm wise, jiggle the seat and the steering wheel (if possible) to a position whereby your arms are straight, and then move the seat forward or wheel back (or a bit of both) to lessen the gap by a couple of inches so your arms are a little bent. That's about the best positioning for comfort.
Over the years I have moved my seat back more and more upright. I find that that aids 'feel' and allows the arms and body to be quite relaxed.
As far as I can seem there's no need to have the leg bent with the clutch pedal to the carpet. The clutch is usually fully disengaged well before then anyway.
I once read that a driver should be able to rest the heel of the palm on the top of the wheel with the shoulders flat against the seat back. This is my baseline.
I don't like being too close to the wheel, though, as I like to be able to turn the wheel through a reasonable angle with my hands in a fixed 9-3 position (with bent arms) where practical when out on the open road.
I adjust the wheel height so that I don't feel that I am reaching up with my arms, I can see the instruments ...and I can use move my left foot onto the brake (it gives me the option although it is extremely rare that I do)
I adjust my mirrors so that I my own car is just out of view, to reduce blind-spots -If I move slightly I can see the sides of the car.
As far as I can seem there's no need to have the leg bent with the clutch pedal to the carpet. The clutch is usually fully disengaged well before then anyway.
I once read that a driver should be able to rest the heel of the palm on the top of the wheel with the shoulders flat against the seat back. This is my baseline.
I don't like being too close to the wheel, though, as I like to be able to turn the wheel through a reasonable angle with my hands in a fixed 9-3 position (with bent arms) where practical when out on the open road.
I adjust the wheel height so that I don't feel that I am reaching up with my arms, I can see the instruments ...and I can use move my left foot onto the brake (it gives me the option although it is extremely rare that I do)
I adjust my mirrors so that I my own car is just out of view, to reduce blind-spots -If I move slightly I can see the sides of the car.
MC Bodge said:
.As far as I can seem there's no need to have the leg bent with the clutch pedal to the carpet. The clutch is usually fully disengaged well before then anyway.
That's not the point. A slight bend at the knee when clutch is pressed correct position for brake pedal which under normal circumstances won't go to the floor.You may find this site useful: http://www.car-seat-data.co.uk/
Although it is now rather out of date.
Although it is now rather out of date.
LordGrover said:
MC Bodge said:
.As far as I can seem there's no need to have the leg bent with the clutch pedal to the carpet. The clutch is usually fully disengaged well before then anyway.
That's not the point. A slight bend at the knee when clutch is pressed correct position for brake pedal which under normal circumstances won't go to the floor.p1esk said:
I'm not sure I understand the merits of that. I'm inclined to agree with MCB, and I think satisfactory operation of the brake pedal (which normally has relatively little travel) will follow on from having a straight leg when the clutch pedal is fully depressed, which it doesn't need to be: or if it does, we've got a mechanical problem looming!
That's the point though. If you brakes fail and the secondary system cuts in it's at a much lower point. If your leg's already pretty much straight with full servos you won't have the leverage to press all the way down in an emergency.Probably poorly explained but it's as I was told recently by IAM observer.
LordGrover said:
p1esk said:
I'm not sure I understand the merits of that. I'm inclined to agree with MCB, and I think satisfactory operation of the brake pedal (which normally has relatively little travel) will follow on from having a straight leg when the clutch pedal is fully depressed, which it doesn't need to be: or if it does, we've got a mechanical problem looming!
That's the point though. If you brakes fail and the secondary system cuts in it's at a much lower point. If your leg's already pretty much straight with full servos you won't have the leverage to press all the way down in an emergency.Probably poorly explained but it's as I was told recently by IAM observer.
Anyhow, moving on from my waffle, I am taking it that brake and clutch pedals will be more or less on a level with each other when they are both free, i.e. up, and that both will go to about the same point when they are fully down. If this is right, in a situation where we're working with only the secondary braking system operational, our braking foot will go to a lower level than normal, but (by your own admission) it still won't go right down to the floor, so we still don't need our foot to travel that far.
I'm therefore still inclined to believe that a seat position that enables you to fully depress the clutch pedal with your leg straight, will also provide for satisfactory operation of the brake pedal; unless of course your right leg is appreciably shorter than your left leg, in which case I will concede defeat (or de feet) and withdraw from the case.
Best wishes all,
Dave - a really tiresome asshole.
LordGrover said:
That's the point though. If you brakes fail and the secondary system cuts in it's at a much lower point. If your leg's already pretty much straight with full servos you won't have the leverage to press all the way down in an emergency.
Probably poorly explained but it's as I was told recently by IAM observer.
No, you've lost me there.Probably poorly explained but it's as I was told recently by IAM observer.
The generally accepted good ergonomic position is the leg on the furthest control (usually the clutch when fully down) slightly bent, and the small of your wrist where it meets your hand being able to be placed on top of the steering wheel with a straight arm without moving your shoulders off the back of the seat. This is impossible for me in most modern cars, but in cars where I can achieve this (usually racing cars modified for me or my Elise and 2-Eleven, which I've modified to suit) I find it by far and away the most comfortable driving position.
For hands on the wheel the generally accepted best placement is at 3 and 9 o clock. This is so all force inputs (and feedback outputs) with one arm are matched with the other, and the force require to turn the wheel a given amount remains the same throughout fixed input rotations. At 10 and 2 o clock, the force required drops as you move the wheel and the wheel 'falls' from side to side, giving you a non-linear response.
HTH
For hands on the wheel the generally accepted best placement is at 3 and 9 o clock. This is so all force inputs (and feedback outputs) with one arm are matched with the other, and the force require to turn the wheel a given amount remains the same throughout fixed input rotations. At 10 and 2 o clock, the force required drops as you move the wheel and the wheel 'falls' from side to side, giving you a non-linear response.
HTH
RobM77 said:
The generally accepted good ergonomic position is the leg on the furthest control (usually the clutch when fully down) slightly bent, and the small of your wrist where it meets your hand being able to be placed on top of the steering wheel with a straight arm without moving your shoulders off the back of the seat. This is impossible for me in most modern cars, but in cars where I can achieve this (usually racing cars modified for me or my Elise and 2-Eleven, which I've modified to suit) I find it by far and away the most comfortable driving position.
For hands on the wheel the generally accepted best placement is at 3 and 9 o clock. This is so all force inputs (and feedback outputs) with one arm are matched with the other, and the force require to turn the wheel a given amount remains the same throughout fixed input rotations. At 10 and 2 o clock, the force required drops as you move the wheel and the wheel 'falls' from side to side, giving you a non-linear response.
HTH
By 'eck, the stuff there is to learn if only one could tek it all in. For hands on the wheel the generally accepted best placement is at 3 and 9 o clock. This is so all force inputs (and feedback outputs) with one arm are matched with the other, and the force require to turn the wheel a given amount remains the same throughout fixed input rotations. At 10 and 2 o clock, the force required drops as you move the wheel and the wheel 'falls' from side to side, giving you a non-linear response.
HTH
Sorry - I'm a self confessed geek!RobM77 said:
The generally accepted good ergonomic position is the leg on the furthest control (usually the clutch when fully down) slightly bent
That's my preference. I'm surprised people are talking about straightening their leg (but that's my fault for assuming everybody must be like me ) If my leg has to go as far as straight to fully depress the pedal, that's starting to feel like I'm having to reach for the pedal rather than the pedal being where I want it, which is quite a distraction. Unfortunately I find it's a fine balance sometimes between it feeling too far away with the pedal down and too close with the pedal up. Setting the fore and aft seat position for the clutch pedal is usually the first adjustment I make in setting my driving position.One of my major frustrations with modern cars is how they don't allow for different body shapes when they design the interiors and controls. Surely that's not too much to ask on a major production car where they're going to build thousands of them and ship them all over the world?
For example, I'm a fairly normal sized guy at 1.77m and 69kg (5'10" and 10st11 in old money) - BMI 22.5 - bang in the middle of the ok range. I have slightly longer than average legs and slightly shorter than average arms, but not hugely so and I buy my clothes off the high street. However, the aforementioned comfortable position is only available to me in one current production car - the Mercedes SLK. For everything else I have to pull the seat forward so far to reach the steering wheel comfortably that my legs are bent sharply and my right foot strained back to reach the throttle and brake. If, conversely, I adjust the seat to suit my legs, with most cars I can only just reach the steering wheel, let alone curl my fingers around it and move it. I also find most car seats about a foot too high, so I feel like I'm on a child's toy rather than in a car. Take the Porsche 911 for example, they spend millions developing every tiny aspect of the car and making it practical and robust enough to use everyday, and yet they fail to make it comfortable enough for me to drive round the block, let alone live with for 15k miles a year. Nissan Micra or Fiat 500? I can't physically get behind the wheel! Ford Focus - driveable but painful on my right ankle and shoulders as I strain then to reach the controls. What a joke that is - a standard sized guy and I can't even sit behind the wheel of some of the most common production cars around.
For example, I'm a fairly normal sized guy at 1.77m and 69kg (5'10" and 10st11 in old money) - BMI 22.5 - bang in the middle of the ok range. I have slightly longer than average legs and slightly shorter than average arms, but not hugely so and I buy my clothes off the high street. However, the aforementioned comfortable position is only available to me in one current production car - the Mercedes SLK. For everything else I have to pull the seat forward so far to reach the steering wheel comfortably that my legs are bent sharply and my right foot strained back to reach the throttle and brake. If, conversely, I adjust the seat to suit my legs, with most cars I can only just reach the steering wheel, let alone curl my fingers around it and move it. I also find most car seats about a foot too high, so I feel like I'm on a child's toy rather than in a car. Take the Porsche 911 for example, they spend millions developing every tiny aspect of the car and making it practical and robust enough to use everyday, and yet they fail to make it comfortable enough for me to drive round the block, let alone live with for 15k miles a year. Nissan Micra or Fiat 500? I can't physically get behind the wheel! Ford Focus - driveable but painful on my right ankle and shoulders as I strain then to reach the controls. What a joke that is - a standard sized guy and I can't even sit behind the wheel of some of the most common production cars around.
MC Bodge said:
I once read that a driver should be able to rest the heel of the palm on the top of the wheel with the shoulders flat against the seat back. This is my baseline.
That is exactly what I do and suggest all others do if physically possibleThe steering wheel on my SEAT IBIZA also has a thumb rest (slightly widen part) each side so it makes the holding between 9/3 and 10/2
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