What exactly is advanced driving.
Discussion
There is a discussion on the 'Braking to a stop' thread of IAM methods and the perceived requirement to drive 'their' way in order to join 'their' club.
There is a fundamental issue here in that it shouldn't primarily be a club.
Getting some post DSA test coaching, brilliant.
Having it lead to a test, makes sense.
Calling the test an 'Advanced' test because it is advanced relative to the DSA, perfectly logical. Calling the governing body the Institute if Advanced Motorists is understandable but a bit dubious since it's the test that's (relatively) advanced not the motorists.
Forming local clubs so that people can help each other towards the test, fine.
The trouble is that the test seems increasingly to be for the benefit of the club/s not vice versa. People seem to take the test to join the club rather than for it's own sake.
My local bike group is called the Thames Vale Advanced Motorcyclists, and some members actually seem to imagine that they are personally 'advanced' in some way thereby irritating everyone else. I really think the IAM should consider stopping the sale of badges and stickers for members to put on their cars, that isn't what the test should be about. Maybe for a local group with a social side allowing members to identify each other is more understandable
The very term 'advanced driving' can be used to mean either 'driving the way everyone ought to anyway once they've had a bit of practice', or the subtly different 'driving the way the IAM examiners are assumed to approve of'. Neither is exactly 'advanced' in an absolute sense and it's often unclear what type of 'advanced driving' is being referred to.
Can anyone think of a different name for what we all mean by advanced driving? 'Competent +' perhaps? 'Post DSA'?
There is a fundamental issue here in that it shouldn't primarily be a club.
Getting some post DSA test coaching, brilliant.
Having it lead to a test, makes sense.
Calling the test an 'Advanced' test because it is advanced relative to the DSA, perfectly logical. Calling the governing body the Institute if Advanced Motorists is understandable but a bit dubious since it's the test that's (relatively) advanced not the motorists.
Forming local clubs so that people can help each other towards the test, fine.
The trouble is that the test seems increasingly to be for the benefit of the club/s not vice versa. People seem to take the test to join the club rather than for it's own sake.
My local bike group is called the Thames Vale Advanced Motorcyclists, and some members actually seem to imagine that they are personally 'advanced' in some way thereby irritating everyone else. I really think the IAM should consider stopping the sale of badges and stickers for members to put on their cars, that isn't what the test should be about. Maybe for a local group with a social side allowing members to identify each other is more understandable
The very term 'advanced driving' can be used to mean either 'driving the way everyone ought to anyway once they've had a bit of practice', or the subtly different 'driving the way the IAM examiners are assumed to approve of'. Neither is exactly 'advanced' in an absolute sense and it's often unclear what type of 'advanced driving' is being referred to.
Can anyone think of a different name for what we all mean by advanced driving? 'Competent +' perhaps? 'Post DSA'?
There are alternatives in the biking world. The BMF offers two levels of post-test certification:
1. 'Rider Plus', which is an intermediate certificate of competence beyond L-test level. The nice thing is that Rider Plus certification is achieved on completion of training with a professional advanced instructor, so it's taught well.
2. 'Blue Riband', which is more advanced than Rider Plus. Again, it's taught by a professional advanced instructor, not an amateur observer. The Blue Riband test requires a similar standard to IAM entry level.
The BMF originally eschewed the term "advanced" altogether, but has since referred to the Blue Riband as advanced.
In addition, the DSA offers 'Enhanced Rider' certification for those who complete a recognised course beyond L-test standard. It's not a particularly high level, but should at least cover overtaking skills.
1. 'Rider Plus', which is an intermediate certificate of competence beyond L-test level. The nice thing is that Rider Plus certification is achieved on completion of training with a professional advanced instructor, so it's taught well.
2. 'Blue Riband', which is more advanced than Rider Plus. Again, it's taught by a professional advanced instructor, not an amateur observer. The Blue Riband test requires a similar standard to IAM entry level.
The BMF originally eschewed the term "advanced" altogether, but has since referred to the Blue Riband as advanced.
In addition, the DSA offers 'Enhanced Rider' certification for those who complete a recognised course beyond L-test standard. It's not a particularly high level, but should at least cover overtaking skills.
AD is a way of extending your thinking which gives you more options to choose from so you can opt for the safest one for any hazard
AD allows you to expand beyond the DSA style of driving and one very simple example might be staying out when you pass parked cars to keep a better view for a little longer providing it is safe to do so instead of pulling back into the left asap
AD allows you to expand beyond the DSA style of driving and one very simple example might be staying out when you pass parked cars to keep a better view for a little longer providing it is safe to do so instead of pulling back into the left asap
R0G said:
AD is a way of extending your thinking which gives you more options to choose from so you can opt for the safest one for any hazard
AD allows you to expand beyond the DSA style of driving and one very simple example might be staying out when you pass parked cars to keep a better view for a little longer providing it is safe to do so instead of pulling back into the left asap
Which could perfectly well be called 'reasonably competent driving'. Once you call it 'Advanced' you raise the question of whether extending thinking and giving yourself options is still advanced if you (for example) BGOL, and whether it matters.AD allows you to expand beyond the DSA style of driving and one very simple example might be staying out when you pass parked cars to keep a better view for a little longer providing it is safe to do so instead of pulling back into the left asap
Didn't the AD groups get together in a darkened room with the DSA & beat each other senseless until they eventually came up with:
"Advanced Driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle will always be in the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
"Advanced Driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle will always be in the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
Dr Jekyll said:
There is a fundamental issue here in that it shouldn't primarily be a club.
Completely wrong. One of the ideas is to devise a system that works. What's happened is that people (on here) have devised a pejorative term about being in that club or not. That's nonsense bandied about by internet short thinking warriors.The system of driving works to increase safety. The downside is that teaching it seems a bit prescriptive. Tough s
t get over it. Take it as it is and use it to help. Or reject it and go your own way. I don't care either way nor am I a supporter nor detractor of that system.However as a person of slight intelligence I can understand how it works. Why can't you?
Bert
PS by "you" I don't mean Dr J, more the wider "you" on this forum. Really boys it's not that hard to grasp.
7mike said:
Didn't the AD groups get together in a darkened room with the DSA & beat each other senseless until they eventually came up with:
"Advanced Driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle will always be in the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
Yes, but I refer you to my previous answer."Advanced Driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle will always be in the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
Dr Jekyll said:
Which could perfectly well be called 'reasonably competent driving'. Once you call it 'Advanced' you raise the question of whether extending thinking and giving yourself options is still advanced if you (for example) BGOL, and whether it matters.
There are many safe styles of driving but some are safer than others and choosing the safest style has to make logical senseWhy would a driver choose to BGOL when there is an option not to do so? - perhaps because it takes more forward planning???
People take the test to cement and measure what they've attempted to do, just like anything else. The test stands up very well on its own, and out of the whole affair, is the furthest away from the whole institutional nightmare.
The club mentality, member smugness and masonic 'our way' philosophy comes after that.
The club mentality, member smugness and masonic 'our way' philosophy comes after that.
7mike said:
Didn't the AD groups get together in a darkened room with the DSA & beat each other senseless until they eventually came up with:
"Advanced Driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle will always be in the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
Shouldn't all drivers be doing this as a matter of course? Why don't we call it further training? Is it called "Advanced Driving" because society is prepared to accept the current level of driver training as an entrance to driving as testing as appropriate? If further driver training was at least incentivised and more common place the perception of elitism that surrounds “Advanced Driving” would be eradicated."Advanced Driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle will always be in the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
stevesingo said:
Shouldn't all drivers be doing this as a matter of course? Why don't we call it further training? Is it called "Advanced Driving" because society is prepared to accept the current level of driver training as an entrance to driving as testing as appropriate? If further driver training was at least incentivised and more common place the perception of elitism that surrounds “Advanced Driving” would be eradicated.
I was just adding the 'official' definition. Personally I dislike attaching labels as they place you in someone else's perceived box. talksthetorque said:
It's a term for people who like to come up with abbreviations for normal stuff to make themselves feel clever. BGOL?
Being Ghey On Line?
Because no one else anywhere on an internet forum has ever used an abbreviation have they Being Ghey On Line?
Apart from perhaps the 1,027,230 listed here
http://www.allacronyms.com/tag/forum/a/rankR0G said:
Dr Jekyll said:
Which could perfectly well be called 'reasonably competent driving'. Once you call it 'Advanced' you raise the question of whether extending thinking and giving yourself options is still advanced if you (for example) BGOL, and whether it matters.
There are many safe styles of driving but some are safer than others and choosing the safest style has to make logical senseWhy would a driver choose to BGOL when there is an option not to do so? - perhaps because it takes more forward planning???
stevesingo said:
7mike said:
Didn't the AD groups get together in a darkened room with the DSA & beat each other senseless until they eventually came up with:
"Advanced Driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle will always be in the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
Shouldn't all drivers be doing this as a matter of course? "Advanced Driving is the ability to control the position and speed of the vehicle safely, systematically and smoothly, using road and traffic conditions to make reasonable progress unobtrusively, with skill and responsibility. This skill requires a positive but courteous attitude and a high standard of driving competence based on concentration, effective all round observation, anticipation and planning. This must be co-ordinated with good handling skills. The vehicle will always be in the right place on the road at the right time, travelling at the right speed with the correct gear engaged and can always be stopped safely in the distance that can be seen to be clear."
The issue is the received wisdom of some of those who have been taught a certain stylised way of driving that there is no more advanced way of doing it - and the rejection of techniques outside of the canon of their style. That's what creates the idea that it's just a matter of conforming to the rules if you want to join the club.
MC Bodge said:
That's my view on the matter. It's not "advanced", it's good practice.
I agree. Though good practice is, unfortunately, quite rare.An advantage of the "advanced" clubs is that they disseminate lots of good practice (e.g. heightened skills in observation and anticipation).
otolith said:
The issue is the received wisdom of some of those who have been taught a certain stylised way of driving that there is no more advanced way of doing it
Quite. The suggestion appears to be that if something is "advanced" is that there is nothing beyond that.Good starting points for people wanting to know more about road driving are below:
If you can absorb the information, think about it and practice implementing it at every opportunity you will begin to form good habits.
If you then wish to take part in a Rospa/IAM course it is probably worth reading Roadcraft or one of the books published by the organisation in order to learn the specifics that they look for/require. It really isn't rocket science and the car control aspects are fairly simple.
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