Bus lane question.
Discussion
Thought I might run this one past you lot on here.
This week I was on a bus. Yes hand in my PH pass I know but in my defence it was a park and ride bus into Worcester.
So the bus cannot make progress down the bus lane because of an old dear pedalling her cycle oh... so... sloooowly.
The bus lane is only wide enough for the bus, just, and there is queuing traffic moving about as quickly as the cycle on the right.
Bus is sitting about a cycle length off this old dear's rear wheel.
Bus stops to let someone off and pick another up. By the time it sets off the old dear is some way ahead even at her pace.
There is a Clio in the car lane looking to turn left ahead and is signalling. Due to traffic Clio can't get ahead of cyclist so is patiently trickling along and is clearly going to move into the short bit of road for traffic turning left. All the time he is signalling left and it's clear by his road positioning what he intends to do.
Matey driving the bus is going to have none of it and at the point that the Clio really should have moved left he chose discretion and stopped to wait for the bus to very slowly barge his way up his nearside back on the cyclist's rear tyre.
My gut reaction was that this was a particularly duff display by the bus and that it was lucky Clio was looking in mirrors.
If there had been a collision whose fault?
Any other thoughts?
This week I was on a bus. Yes hand in my PH pass I know but in my defence it was a park and ride bus into Worcester.
So the bus cannot make progress down the bus lane because of an old dear pedalling her cycle oh... so... sloooowly.
The bus lane is only wide enough for the bus, just, and there is queuing traffic moving about as quickly as the cycle on the right.
Bus is sitting about a cycle length off this old dear's rear wheel.
Bus stops to let someone off and pick another up. By the time it sets off the old dear is some way ahead even at her pace.
There is a Clio in the car lane looking to turn left ahead and is signalling. Due to traffic Clio can't get ahead of cyclist so is patiently trickling along and is clearly going to move into the short bit of road for traffic turning left. All the time he is signalling left and it's clear by his road positioning what he intends to do.
Matey driving the bus is going to have none of it and at the point that the Clio really should have moved left he chose discretion and stopped to wait for the bus to very slowly barge his way up his nearside back on the cyclist's rear tyre.
My gut reaction was that this was a particularly duff display by the bus and that it was lucky Clio was looking in mirrors.
If there had been a collision whose fault?
Any other thoughts?
I'd have thought that as soon as the bus lane ended the bus would have been undertaking without due care to gain an advantage. The situation is probably all in the margins of relative position and timing. I guess it goes to show you can be technically correct but still a rude and inconsiderate driver.
I've not thought about the scenario of the cyclist, i presume they shouldn't be in the bus lane in the first place
I've not thought about the scenario of the cyclist, i presume they shouldn't be in the bus lane in the first place
Jon1967x said:
I'd have thought that as soon as the bus lane ended the bus would have been undertaking without due care to gain an advantage. The situation is probably all in the margins of relative position and timing. I guess it goes to show you can be technically correct but still a rude and inconsiderate driver.
It sounds to me more like traffic in different lanes moving at different speeds. Difficult to see how the bus driver should be automatically in the wrong just because he's passing down the left side of a queue. Perhaps the bus driver could have been more co-operative.As to the OP's question, if there had been a collision as the car driver changed lanes without checking it was clear, I can't see how the car driver could be innocent.
Jon1967x said:
I'd have thought that as soon as the bus lane ended the bus would have been undertaking without due care to gain an advantage. The situation is probably all in the margins of relative position and timing. I guess it goes to show you can be technically correct but still a rude and inconsiderate driver.
I've not thought about the scenario of the cyclist, i presume they shouldn't be in the bus lane in the first place
Cyclists are allowed in all the bus lanes I've ever seen.I've not thought about the scenario of the cyclist, i presume they shouldn't be in the bus lane in the first place
The Clio would hypothetically change lanes when it wasn't safe to do so, and the bus was perfectly entitled to proceed in their lane.
What do you suggest would be a more appropriate course of action for the bus driver when he comes to the end of a bus lane?
To answer the questions raised.
The cyclist was permitted to use the bus lane.
As to what the bus driver could have done. He could see, even I as a passenger could see, he wasn't going to get past the cyclist until well beyond the junction when it all opens up a bit. Earlier on he had being trying to bully a bit of space to his right to make a very close overtake. It was obvious what the Clio wished to do. Imo what I would have done is permit the Clio to change lanes by hanging back and giving him time and space then caught the cyclist up and overtaken her at exactly the same point as he actually did.
Agree that if the Clio had changed lanes with the bus in close proximity they would have been in the wrong.
Obviously we cannot know what was in the mind of the Clio driver but it certainly seemed as if they chose not to change lanes when physically, technically and probably legally could have done simply out of self preservation against a bully in a bigger vehicle.
Possibly being too harsh as driving a bus up and down that road for an entire working day would get on my wires too. But behaviour over the line imho.
Just posted the question in here to keep it away from the idiots in other forums and get sensible views really.
The cyclist was permitted to use the bus lane.
As to what the bus driver could have done. He could see, even I as a passenger could see, he wasn't going to get past the cyclist until well beyond the junction when it all opens up a bit. Earlier on he had being trying to bully a bit of space to his right to make a very close overtake. It was obvious what the Clio wished to do. Imo what I would have done is permit the Clio to change lanes by hanging back and giving him time and space then caught the cyclist up and overtaken her at exactly the same point as he actually did.
Agree that if the Clio had changed lanes with the bus in close proximity they would have been in the wrong.
Obviously we cannot know what was in the mind of the Clio driver but it certainly seemed as if they chose not to change lanes when physically, technically and probably legally could have done simply out of self preservation against a bully in a bigger vehicle.
Possibly being too harsh as driving a bus up and down that road for an entire working day would get on my wires too. But behaviour over the line imho.
Just posted the question in here to keep it away from the idiots in other forums and get sensible views really.
Sorry, to clarify, I was asking the poster I quoted what the bus driver should (hypothetically) do at the end of a bus lane, to avoid so-called "undertaking".
I think I generally have it good with buses as most of the time it's Lothian Buses in Edinburgh I share the roads with - >99% of the time their drivers are courteous, indicate clearly etc, and as a result other drivers seem more inclined to let them out/be generally accommodating. It's nice to be nice
The driver in your example could perhaps learn a thing or two 
I think I generally have it good with buses as most of the time it's Lothian Buses in Edinburgh I share the roads with - >99% of the time their drivers are courteous, indicate clearly etc, and as a result other drivers seem more inclined to let them out/be generally accommodating. It's nice to be nice
The driver in your example could perhaps learn a thing or two Its probably down to a degree of interpretation of the specific situation. The bus driver who is the only vehicle (bicycles and taxis aside) allowed in the lane can drive freely. At the end of the bus lane the road becomes a normal 2 lane road. If the bus is then aggressive in undertaking, or driving much faster than the outer lane then he has to be mindful that he has to still show due care and attention.
Undertaking when traffic is slow moving does bring up the question of how fast (relative speeds) is too fast to undertake? Would the bus driver be reasonable driving at 40 mph when undertaking cars doing say 10mph at the end of the bus lane especially when a car is indicating its going to join the lane?
Like many of these things we can argue different view points on whether we think the clio was just in front of the bus or 50m in front when it started to indicate, whether the bus was doing 5 or 35mph (in this case probably 5-10mph) and how fast the clio was doing, whether the bus lane had ended or not when the bus passed the car. What it does sound like was the bus driver was agitated by being held up by the bike.
Undertaking when traffic is slow moving does bring up the question of how fast (relative speeds) is too fast to undertake? Would the bus driver be reasonable driving at 40 mph when undertaking cars doing say 10mph at the end of the bus lane especially when a car is indicating its going to join the lane?
Like many of these things we can argue different view points on whether we think the clio was just in front of the bus or 50m in front when it started to indicate, whether the bus was doing 5 or 35mph (in this case probably 5-10mph) and how fast the clio was doing, whether the bus lane had ended or not when the bus passed the car. What it does sound like was the bus driver was agitated by being held up by the bike.
Jon1967x said:
Its probably down to a degree of interpretation of the specific situation. The bus driver who is the only vehicle (bicycles and taxis aside) allowed in the lane can drive freely. At the end of the bus lane the road becomes a normal 2 lane road. If the bus is then aggressive in undertaking, or driving much faster than the outer lane then he has to be mindful that he has to still show due care and attention.
Undertaking when traffic is slow moving does bring up the question of how fast (relative speeds) is too fast to undertake? Would the bus driver be reasonable driving at 40 mph when undertaking cars doing say 10mph at the end of the bus lane especially when a car is indicating its going to join the lane?
Like many of these things we can argue different view points on whether we think the clio was just in front of the bus or 50m in front when it started to indicate, whether the bus was doing 5 or 35mph (in this case probably 5-10mph) and how fast the clio was doing, whether the bus lane had ended or not when the bus passed the car. What it does sound like was the bus driver was agitated by being held up by the bike.
I fail to see any interpretation where a car changing lanes into the path of another vehicle is anything but "at fault".Undertaking when traffic is slow moving does bring up the question of how fast (relative speeds) is too fast to undertake? Would the bus driver be reasonable driving at 40 mph when undertaking cars doing say 10mph at the end of the bus lane especially when a car is indicating its going to join the lane?
Like many of these things we can argue different view points on whether we think the clio was just in front of the bus or 50m in front when it started to indicate, whether the bus was doing 5 or 35mph (in this case probably 5-10mph) and how fast the clio was doing, whether the bus lane had ended or not when the bus passed the car. What it does sound like was the bus driver was agitated by being held up by the bike.
Even if the other driver was going quickly, what defence would the Clio driver have? "I saw him going too fast but I changed lanes anyway" or "I didn't see them"? Quite a catastrophic claim either way.
simoid said:
I fail to see any interpretation where a car changing lanes into the path of another vehicle is anything but "at fault".
Even if the other driver was going quickly, what defence would the Clio driver have? "I saw him going too fast but I changed lanes anyway" or "I didn't see them"? Quite a catastrophic claim either way.
Edited by Jon1967x on Tuesday 24th December 17:21
Jon1967x said:
So you think it's fine to undertake at 70mph if an outside lane has stopped? Reduce any point to an extreme example shows a degree of ambiguity. I agree the Clio can't just pull into the Kane, all I'm trying to point out us that If you undertake you have to careful and mindful to the traffic you're undertaking. I don't believe you have right of way when undertaking
Staying away from extremes and thinking about the situation described, I don't see oew the Clio driver would have priority.Edited by Jon1967x on Tuesday 24th December 17:21
Jon1967x said:
So you think it's fine to undertake at 70mph if an outside lane has stopped? Reduce any point to an extreme example shows a degree of ambiguity. I agree the Clio can't just pull into the Kane, all I'm trying to point out us that If you undertake you have to careful and mindful to the traffic you're undertaking. I don't believe you have right of way when undertaking
Yes obviously you are mindful of other traffic when moving in queues, but if someone moves into your path and you cannot get out of the way, it can only be their fault. As you say, it's also probably silly to overtake with a massive speed differential in case someone does have an error of judgement Edited by Jon1967x on Tuesday 24th December 17:21
The car established in the lane has "right of way" over anyone crossing a white line to get into it, unless you can show me something to the contrary about a car passing on the near side?
I'll say it before someone else does too... no such thing as undertaking in a car unless you're in a herse
simoid said:
Heard of crash for cash?
Yes, quite a lot. I live in East Lancs & work a fair bit in Bradford. I generally raise awareness of the issue during driver training in the area. Emphasis is on observation & anticipation so as not to get involved; not get all hung up on whose insurance company is going to pay out 
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