Ban smacking, children's tsar urges

[hornetrider]

Hugo a Gogo said:

hornetrider said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

or it could be because those children have learned that a smack is a useful conflict-resolution tool, from their parents love-filled smacks, so apply the same to their teachers

I used to get a hiding when I was young, and I never chinned a teacher. Most of my peers are the same...

I never used to get smacked, and I never chinned a teacher. Most of my peers are the same...

And yet we have kids now who definitely aren't getting smacked hitting teachers.

I wonder if there is some sort of correlation there hmmm. What do you think?

Actually to be fair I think it's more to do with st chavvy parents, not PHers natch.

[anonymous-user]

Who is more likely to punch you at the pub or in a road rage fracas? Someone who is habituated to using blows to solve problems, or someone who isn't? Whatcha reckon?

[Hugo a Gogo]

hornetrider said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

hornetrider said:

Hugo a Gogo said:

or it could be because those children have learned that a smack is a useful conflict-resolution tool, from their parents love-filled smacks, so apply the same to their teachers

I used to get a hiding when I was young, and I never chinned a teacher. Most of my peers are the same...

I never used to get smacked, and I never chinned a teacher. Most of my peers are the same...

And yet we have kids now who definitely aren't getting smacked hitting teachers.

I wonder if there is some sort of correlation there hmmm. What do you think?

Actually to be fair I think it's more to do with st chavvy parents, not PHers natch.

who says they definitely aren't getting smacked at home? where's the correlation then?

the sort of kid who attacks teachers isn't getting the best guidance at home, that much is clear

[Hugo a Gogo]

Breadvan72 said:

The idea that the only alternative to smacking is mental torture is laughable. Try using neither. Try not regarding children as antagonists or as animals. My daughter is ten. She is not perfect, and nor am I, but she has never had a tantrum and has never needed to be yelled at, threatened, deprived of privileges, sent to sit on her own, or any of that. We talk to her. She listens. No psychological warfare or hand to hand combat required.

one kid is easy

[0000]

Breadvan72 said:

The idea that the only alternative to smacking is mental torture is laughable. Try using neither. Try not regarding children as antagonists or as animals. My daughter is ten. She is not perfect, and nor am I, but she has never had a tantrum and has never needed to be yelled at, threatened, deprived of privileges, sent to sit on her own, or any of that. We talk to her. She listens. No psychological warfare or hand to hand combat required.

It's whisky, isn't it?

[hornetrider]

Breadvan72 said:

Who is more likely to punch you at the pub or in a road rage fracas? Someone who is habituated to using blows to solve problems, or someone who isn't? Whatcha reckon?

Someone who has spent their life being coerced via submersive mental means and is lashing out? Who knows eh, who knows.

[anonymous-user]

Breadvan72 said:

Rovinghawk said:

That is not what was said. Twisting words & misrepresention is far below your usual standard.

What was said was that the dog chose to discipline them as she would her own puppies; no harm & it worked perfectly.

Read it again. Some psycho thinks it acceptable for a dog to discipline children.

Unfortunately he's the psycho you're talking about.

This was his original comment.

rovinghawk said:

One Christmas my nephews & nieces were getting rowdy. My sister's dobermann has a lovely temperament and adores the kids- highly protective as if they were her own puppies. Nevertheless, the kids' behaviour was crossing a boundary.

Suddenly the dog leapt to her feet & nipped all the three kids on the thigh, with just enough pressure to put her point across. Consequently, the kids rapidly parked their rear ends on the sofa & quietened down.

It wasn't an attack- she would have been destroyed if we even vaguely suspected it. It was done as a disciplinary act and it worked superbly. The kids don't hate the dog, they don't fear the dog, they just respect her. We looked at the dog's actions & agreed they were considered & proportionate.

I don't kids so don't have an axe to grind one way or the other in this debate. I don't think you 'should' smack children, I certainly don't think you should 'beat' children (apropos of BV72's comments, there are a lot of emotive and/or misleading terms used by both sides of the debate).

I do, however, believe that smacking should be an available option. Not in anger, not for lack of any alternatives, purely for when it would be the most effective method of instilling a lesson.

"Law, without force, is impotent". (Blaise Pascal.)

Anyone who thinks this is normal or acceptable 1) knows nothing about dogs 2) shouldn't ever have dogs or children

[Silent1]

el stovey said:

Breadvan72 said:

Rovinghawk said:

That is not what was said. Twisting words & misrepresention is far below your usual standard.

What was said was that the dog chose to discipline them as she would her own puppies; no harm & it worked perfectly.

Read it again. Some psycho thinks it acceptable for a dog to discipline children.

Unfortunately he's the psycho you're talking about.

This was his original comment.

rovinghawk said:

One Christmas my nephews & nieces were getting rowdy. My sister's dobermann has a lovely temperament and adores the kids- highly protective as if they were her own puppies. Nevertheless, the kids' behaviour was crossing a boundary.

Suddenly the dog leapt to her feet & nipped all the three kids on the thigh, with just enough pressure to put her point across. Consequently, the kids rapidly parked their rear ends on the sofa & quietened down.

It wasn't an attack- she would have been destroyed if we even vaguely suspected it. It was done as a disciplinary act and it worked superbly. The kids don't hate the dog, they don't fear the dog, they just respect her. We looked at the dog's actions & agreed they were considered & proportionate.

I don't kids so don't have an axe to grind one way or the other in this debate. I don't think you 'should' smack children, I certainly don't think you should 'beat' children (apropos of BV72's comments, there are a lot of emotive and/or misleading terms used by both sides of the debate).

I do, however, believe that smacking should be an available option. Not in anger, not for lack of any alternatives, purely for when it would be the most effective method of instilling a lesson.

"Law, without force, is impotent". (Blaise Pascal.)

Anyone who thinks this is normal or acceptable 1) knows nothing about dogs 2) shouldn't ever have dogs or children

That's scary that someone thinks a dog would discipline children, I've had dogs my entire life and if one of mine ever did that I'd consider myself to have failed at training the dog.

[Hoofy]

Breadvan72 said:

Rovinghawk said:

That is not what was said. Twisting words & misrepresention is far below your usual standard.

What was said was that the dog chose to discipline them as she would her own puppies; no harm & it worked perfectly.

Read it again. Some psycho thinks it acceptable for a dog to discipline children.

What about an elephant?



Probably best not to pull your son by his "trunk" though as that could lead to all manner of problems.

[Hugo a Gogo]

train the dog to lead kids to the naughty step, or train it to turn off the telly when cbeebies comes on

[anonymous-user]

Silent1 said:

That's scary that someone thinks a dog would discipline children, I've had dogs my entire life and if one of mine ever did that I'd consider myself to have failed at training the dog.

I think there's been a couple on the thread. The guy quoted above even thinks it "worked perfectly".

Unfortunately, they'll be the families in the news with dogs that suddenly do something horrific and "totally out of character"

[anonymous-user]

Y

0000 said:

Breadvan72 said:

The idea that the only alternative to smacking is mental torture is laughable. Try using neither. Try not regarding children as antagonists or as animals. My daughter is ten. She is not perfect, and nor am I, but she has never had a tantrum and has never needed to be yelled at, threatened, deprived of privileges, sent to sit on her own, or any of that. We talk to her. She listens. No psychological warfare or hand to hand combat required.

It's whisky, isn't it?

Vodka, mostly. It's cheaper.

[hornetrider]

Hugo a Gogo said:

train the dog to lead kids to the naughty step, or train it to turn off the telly when cbeebies comes on

Naughty step or no tv? Are you advocating mental torture on a defenceless child? Imagine the monster they will turn into when they grow up. They might withhold sweets from their kids and who knows where the craziness will end. Won't somebody please think of the children?

[WinstonWolf]

Breadvan72 said:

The idea that the only alternative to smacking is mental torture is laughable. Try using neither. Try not regarding children as antagonists or as animals. My daughter is ten. She is not perfect, and nor am I, but she has never had a tantrum and has never needed to be yelled at, threatened, deprived of privileges, sent to sit on her own, or any of that. We talk to her. She listens. No psychological warfare or hand to hand combat required.

But she's not yet a teenager. Good luck with that

[anonymous-user]

What will be will be, but even if she is horrid I won't biff her.

Too scary! We had a sword fight yesterday, and she was a bit too Arya Stark for my clumsy defence.

[Legend83]

Breadvan72 said:

The idea that the only alternative to smacking is mental torture is laughable. Try using neither. Try not regarding children as antagonists or as animals. My daughter is ten. She is not perfect, and nor am I, but she has never had a tantrum and has never needed to be yelled at, threatened, deprived of privileges, sent to sit on her own, or any of that. We talk to her. She listens. No psychological warfare or hand to hand combat required.

You are obviously fortunate you spawned a child who is placid and thoughtful in nature.

The majority of young children are fractious, demanding and often do things without engaging brain - you only have to drop your children at nursery to see that.

My boy (and his sister) is 4 in August - he is a lovely, good natured lad but he is developing young male tendencies of aggression, stubbornness and going too far with things that started out funny but ultimately ended up in tears (usually rough and tumble with his sister) - I know from experience "talking" to him, as you so righteously put it, will have little effect as his capacity for listening to me when he is rolling around on the floor laughing while accidentally kneeing Emily in the head is low.

Hence I have to raise my voice on a regular basis or physically restrain / remove him from the situation.

I don't like doing it but "talking" invariably does not work.

[Timmy40]

Legend83 said:

Breadvan72 said:

The idea that the only alternative to smacking is mental torture is laughable. Try using neither. Try not regarding children as antagonists or as animals. My daughter is ten. She is not perfect, and nor am I, but she has never had a tantrum and has never needed to be yelled at, threatened, deprived of privileges, sent to sit on her own, or any of that. We talk to her. She listens. No psychological warfare or hand to hand combat required.

You are obviously fortunate you spawned a child who is placid and thoughtful in nature.

The majority of young children are fractious, demanding and often do things without engaging brain - you only have to drop your children at nursery to see that.

My boy (and his sister) is 4 in August - he is a lovely, good natured lad but he is developing young male tendencies of aggression, stubbornness and going too far with things that started out funny but ultimately ended up in tears (usually rough and tumble with his sister) - I know from experience "talking" to him, as you so righteously put it, will have little effect as his capacity for listening to me when he is rolling around on the floor laughing while accidentally kneeing Emily in the head is low.

Hence I have to raise my voice on a regular basis or physically restrain / remove him from the situation.

I don't like doing it but "talking" invariably does not work.

Which shows that you can discipline and unruly child without smacking. I'll probably be accused of some form of torture for this, but my usual method was to grab the wriggling child by the feet and remove from the situation whilst dangling upside down. Then place on the naughty step the right way up.

[Pan Pan Pan]

Breadvan72 said:

Who is more likely to punch you at the pub or in a road rage fracas? Someone who is habituated to using blows to solve problems, or someone who isn't? Whatcha reckon?

It could just as easily be someone who knows / thinks he can punch your lights out, and you are not going to do a thing about it. Unless perhaps you believe that driving your nose onto his fist, is controlling the situation?.
You seem to be one of those people who think that all other people are like you and will respond to getting just a `talking to' I am sorry but they just are not, and they just do not. That is the reality of life in this modern world of ours.

[anonymous-user]

I think no such thing. Some people cannot be reasoned with. Such people are shaped by their upbringing, as are we all. People who have been hit a lot sometimes, not always, become unduly keen on hitting others.

It is a mistake to assume that someone who deplores adults hitting children also thinks that in no circumstances must adults hit adults. Hitting children or adults as punishment is, however, not on in my opinion. It is illegal to hit an adult as a punishment, but legal to hit a child as,a punishment, if you are the parent or guardian. That is in my opinion an unjustified anomaly.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 2nd July 17:53

[Pan Pan Pan]

Breadvan72 said:

I think no such thing. Some people cannot be reasoned with. Such people are shaped by their upbringing. People who have been hit a lot sometimes, nor always, become unduly keen on hitting others.

Likewise people who hit others, but have never received any retaliation or commensurate pain in return, are just as likely to go around hitting others, knowing it will cost them nothing to do so.
Some children do the exact opposite of what their parents tell them, as a way of spiteing and getting back at their parents, So just telling your child not to hit someone is absolutely no guarantee that `they' wont resort to this behaviour, especially if they learn it gains them something (even if it is just a reputation for being a nasty little s*d.)