Small Teams and the Cup(s)
Discussion
"Aston Villa manager Paul Lambert believes the majority of top-flight clubs would rather not have the distraction of the FA Cup.
Speaking before Saturday's third-round game with Sheffield United, Lambert was asked whether the FA Cup was something Premier League clubs could do without.
"I think if you asked the majority of them, if they were being honest, they probably would do," he told BBC WM.
"Not just because of the money but survival in the league is vital."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25579811
From BFS @ West Ham:
"Cups don't mean anything any more," the former Bolton manager said. "We've worked our way to the League Cup semi-finals. It doesn't matter, what does is our Premier League status and getting points. The cups are secondary in our plight, especially with our injuries."
I really don't understand this attitude. There are at a push 5 teams at the start of the season with any chance of winning the league and Villa aren't one.
With a bit of luck in the draw smaller clubs can actually win a cup, as Wigan and Portsmouth proved. What's the point of following a club with no ambition to win anything? Is staying in the top flight so you can be beaten by the top clubs every season all a middle ranked club should aim for?
I don't want to single out Villa or West Ham, it seems that the majority of clubs in the top division just want to exist at there current level and are no longer interest in trying to win trophies. Where's the joy of supporting a club who don't aim to win anything?
P.S. I assume Villa and West Ham will be slashing ticket prices for cup games if their teams aren't going to try.
Speaking before Saturday's third-round game with Sheffield United, Lambert was asked whether the FA Cup was something Premier League clubs could do without.
"I think if you asked the majority of them, if they were being honest, they probably would do," he told BBC WM.
"Not just because of the money but survival in the league is vital."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25579811
From BFS @ West Ham:
"Cups don't mean anything any more," the former Bolton manager said. "We've worked our way to the League Cup semi-finals. It doesn't matter, what does is our Premier League status and getting points. The cups are secondary in our plight, especially with our injuries."
I really don't understand this attitude. There are at a push 5 teams at the start of the season with any chance of winning the league and Villa aren't one.
With a bit of luck in the draw smaller clubs can actually win a cup, as Wigan and Portsmouth proved. What's the point of following a club with no ambition to win anything? Is staying in the top flight so you can be beaten by the top clubs every season all a middle ranked club should aim for?
I don't want to single out Villa or West Ham, it seems that the majority of clubs in the top division just want to exist at there current level and are no longer interest in trying to win trophies. Where's the joy of supporting a club who don't aim to win anything?
P.S. I assume Villa and West Ham will be slashing ticket prices for cup games if their teams aren't going to try.
Edited by Fittster on Thursday 2nd January 18:34
Huge sums of money and around 20 or so mini cup finals Vs winning a cup and then financial reality, coupled with lower league Saturdays for a good amount of time.
Interesting that you mentioned a team that's been bordering on chewing moss from the pavement cracks and another that's entirely dependent on a reasonably rich old bloke.
It isn't right, but it is reality. Which do you think, for example, Bolton Wanderers would try for?
Interesting that you mentioned a team that's been bordering on chewing moss from the pavement cracks and another that's entirely dependent on a reasonably rich old bloke.
It isn't right, but it is reality. Which do you think, for example, Bolton Wanderers would try for?
I don't get the cup is a distraction. Its a game of football for people who get paid to play football...if you cant manage 2 games in 9 days then you probably don't deserve to get paid the amounts they do.
Cup games would be ideal to get your squad some morale back by having a great victory and get the fans cheering.
Middle of the road clubs should be all over the FA cup.
Stupid statement by Lambert.
Cup games would be ideal to get your squad some morale back by having a great victory and get the fans cheering.
Middle of the road clubs should be all over the FA cup.
Stupid statement by Lambert.
Weird....I posted something similar to this in the Saints thread yesterday. Got a similar reaction to you guys (and the majority I expect) where it would be considered madness to not give the cup 100% effort in view of a better run in the league.
I'm actually in agreement with PL though, though that's only based on my club, not Villa or whatever. Way I'm looking at it, we've had two successive promotions and are trying to build a squad for the future. We've got an awesome youth academy too, but we're lacking in depth in the squad right now. Earlier part of the season we had some slightly easier fixtures, had a full-strength starting XI and took advantage of that, which the table showed. Recently, we've had the tougher fixtures and some injuries. Our form has dropped massively (though 9th is a still a good place over the break IMO), and the Chelsea game on New Year's Day was a perfect example of how having a lack of depth in the squad can hurt. Chelsea had superstars keeping the bench warm, and when they threw a couple on it changed the game. We had no answer, and we were tired from the recent bundle of games because we haven't really had a squad you can rotate to rest players without "rolling over" slightly.
I feel that if we give the cup 100% right now, it's only going to make that problem worse, and we currently have a good chance of finishing in the top half. That's a big deal for Southampton - we're not normally considered a top-half team. If we do that, and manage it again next season, we're going to start attracting a higher calibre of player and the squad will build better (along with the youth players who will be flourishing too). That's when I'd be pushing for the cup....when we've got a squad that can handle the extra games, the PL and the resulting European run. Getting to a cup final would be fantastic, and I'd be jumping for joy. But if it came at the expense of a decent league finish.....well I'd rather think long-term, and a cup final isn't a long-term strategy.
For us at least, I'd throw the second XI team out sprinkled with some players who need a game against Burnley and let nature take its course.
Fully aware I'm in the minority and fully expecting to need my flame-suit though
I'm actually in agreement with PL though, though that's only based on my club, not Villa or whatever. Way I'm looking at it, we've had two successive promotions and are trying to build a squad for the future. We've got an awesome youth academy too, but we're lacking in depth in the squad right now. Earlier part of the season we had some slightly easier fixtures, had a full-strength starting XI and took advantage of that, which the table showed. Recently, we've had the tougher fixtures and some injuries. Our form has dropped massively (though 9th is a still a good place over the break IMO), and the Chelsea game on New Year's Day was a perfect example of how having a lack of depth in the squad can hurt. Chelsea had superstars keeping the bench warm, and when they threw a couple on it changed the game. We had no answer, and we were tired from the recent bundle of games because we haven't really had a squad you can rotate to rest players without "rolling over" slightly.
I feel that if we give the cup 100% right now, it's only going to make that problem worse, and we currently have a good chance of finishing in the top half. That's a big deal for Southampton - we're not normally considered a top-half team. If we do that, and manage it again next season, we're going to start attracting a higher calibre of player and the squad will build better (along with the youth players who will be flourishing too). That's when I'd be pushing for the cup....when we've got a squad that can handle the extra games, the PL and the resulting European run. Getting to a cup final would be fantastic, and I'd be jumping for joy. But if it came at the expense of a decent league finish.....well I'd rather think long-term, and a cup final isn't a long-term strategy.
For us at least, I'd throw the second XI team out sprinkled with some players who need a game against Burnley and let nature take its course.
Fully aware I'm in the minority and fully expecting to need my flame-suit though
Kitchski said:
Weird....I posted something similar to this in the Saints thread yesterday. Got a similar reaction to you guys (and the majority I expect) where it would be considered madness to not give the cup 100% effort in view of a better run in the league.
I'm actually in agreement with PL though, though that's only based on my club, not Villa or whatever. Way I'm looking at it, we've had two successive promotions and are trying to build a squad for the future. We've got an awesome youth academy too, but we're lacking in depth in the squad right now. Earlier part of the season we had some slightly easier fixtures, had a full-strength starting XI and took advantage of that, which the table showed. Recently, we've had the tougher fixtures and some injuries. Our form has dropped massively (though 9th is a still a good place over the break IMO), and the Chelsea game on New Year's Day was a perfect example of how having a lack of depth in the squad can hurt. Chelsea had superstars keeping the bench warm, and when they threw a couple on it changed the game. We had no answer, and we were tired from the recent bundle of games because we haven't really had a squad you can rotate to rest players without "rolling over" slightly.
I feel that if we give the cup 100% right now, it's only going to make that problem worse, and we currently have a good chance of finishing in the top half. That's a big deal for Southampton - we're not normally considered a top-half team. If we do that, and manage it again next season, we're going to start attracting a higher calibre of player and the squad will build better (along with the youth players who will be flourishing too). That's when I'd be pushing for the cup....when we've got a squad that can handle the extra games, the PL and the resulting European run. Getting to a cup final would be fantastic, and I'd be jumping for joy. But if it came at the expense of a decent league finish.....well I'd rather think long-term, and a cup final isn't a long-term strategy.
For us at least, I'd throw the second XI team out sprinkled with some players who need a game against Burnley and let nature take its course.
Fully aware I'm in the minority and fully expecting to need my flame-suit though
When you list the achievements of Southampton what's their greatest honor, winning the FA Cup or coming second in the league?I'm actually in agreement with PL though, though that's only based on my club, not Villa or whatever. Way I'm looking at it, we've had two successive promotions and are trying to build a squad for the future. We've got an awesome youth academy too, but we're lacking in depth in the squad right now. Earlier part of the season we had some slightly easier fixtures, had a full-strength starting XI and took advantage of that, which the table showed. Recently, we've had the tougher fixtures and some injuries. Our form has dropped massively (though 9th is a still a good place over the break IMO), and the Chelsea game on New Year's Day was a perfect example of how having a lack of depth in the squad can hurt. Chelsea had superstars keeping the bench warm, and when they threw a couple on it changed the game. We had no answer, and we were tired from the recent bundle of games because we haven't really had a squad you can rotate to rest players without "rolling over" slightly.
I feel that if we give the cup 100% right now, it's only going to make that problem worse, and we currently have a good chance of finishing in the top half. That's a big deal for Southampton - we're not normally considered a top-half team. If we do that, and manage it again next season, we're going to start attracting a higher calibre of player and the squad will build better (along with the youth players who will be flourishing too). That's when I'd be pushing for the cup....when we've got a squad that can handle the extra games, the PL and the resulting European run. Getting to a cup final would be fantastic, and I'd be jumping for joy. But if it came at the expense of a decent league finish.....well I'd rather think long-term, and a cup final isn't a long-term strategy.
For us at least, I'd throw the second XI team out sprinkled with some players who need a game against Burnley and let nature take its course.
Fully aware I'm in the minority and fully expecting to need my flame-suit though
Fittster said:
When you list the achievements of Southampton what's their greatest honor, winning the FA Cup or coming second in the league?
The FA Cup, but that doesn't pay the bills.Staying in the Prem is priority 1,2 and 3.
You need to be in the top 8 to have the luxury of taking the cups seriously, but if you're in the top 8, then you're fighting to be in Europe. The domestic cups have been squeezed out by more pressing concerns.
SpeckledJim said:
Fittster said:
When you list the achievements of Southampton what's their greatest honor, winning the FA Cup or coming second in the league?
The FA Cup, but that doesn't pay the bills.Staying in the Prem is priority 1,2 and 3.
You need to be in the top 8 to have the luxury of taking the cups seriously, but if you're in the top 8, then you're fighting to be in Europe. The domestic cups have been squeezed out by more pressing concerns.
It's probably going to be a while before teams like Coventry, Portsmouth or Wigan make it back to the top flight and when/if they do they aren't likely to win the league or even stay in the top division permanently but their places in the history books are secure thanks to cup wins.
Since the start of the permier league only the following clubs haven't been relegated:
Manchester United
Liverpool
Chelsea
Everton
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Only a 3 of those (IHMO) have any realistic probability of winning the league, the others just hang about. Is that really something to aspire to? Are Villa fans chomping at the bit, dreaming of glory at the start of the season?
Did Southampton cease to exist after the 2004-2005 season?
The league and a worth while run in the CL are for at max 4 English clubs. A cup run is pretty much the only point the other teams have to exist.
Edited by Fittster on Friday 3rd January 11:44
Fittster said:
SpeckledJim said:
Fittster said:
When you list the achievements of Southampton what's their greatest honor, winning the FA Cup or coming second in the league?
The FA Cup, but that doesn't pay the bills.Staying in the Prem is priority 1,2 and 3.
You need to be in the top 8 to have the luxury of taking the cups seriously, but if you're in the top 8, then you're fighting to be in Europe. The domestic cups have been squeezed out by more pressing concerns.
It's probably going to be a while before teams like Coventry, Portsmouth or Wigan make it back to the top flight and when/if they do they aren't likely to win the league or even stay in the top division permanently but their places in the history books are secure thanks to cup wins.
Since the start of the permier league only the following clubs haven't been relegated:
Manchester United
Liverpool
Chelsea
Everton
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Only a 3 of those (IHMO) have any realistic probability of winning the league, the others just hang about. Is that really something to aspire to? Are Villa fans chomping at the bit, dreaming of glory at the start of the season?
Did Southampton cease to exist after the 2004-2005 season?
The league and a worth while run in the CL are for at max 4 English clubs. A cup run is pretty much the only point the other teams have to exist.
Edited by Fittster on Friday 3rd January 11:44
Your sentiments are all entirely correct, but they're just sentiments, from a fan's POV.
Steameh said:
Wigan fans will take the win over Man City to lift the cup to their graves. Relgations and promotions come and go.
Yup, and maybe a fan-run club would take the cups more seriously at the beginning. But then, slowly, commercial reality would sink in. The manager would be lobbying them to let him turn down the focus, and they'd accede to that request.ALL about the money. ALWAYS. Which is sad, but isn't going to change.
It is a shame that the FA cup has gone this way ,
I think the cup died the day United went to play that world club cup thing, & in all fairness to Manchester United I think they were put in a position where they had no choice,
The excellent latest spurs show podcast features the great Alan Gilzean & Big Pat Jennings , Gilzean signed for Spurs purely because he wanted to play in a cup final at Wembley,
Sadly the romance has been outed from the game , mainly by the Champions league & the Money men.
I'll still be cheering on my team in tomorrow's Stella cup tie hoping for a win . I still love the cups , but then again I'm old.
I think the cup died the day United went to play that world club cup thing, & in all fairness to Manchester United I think they were put in a position where they had no choice,
The excellent latest spurs show podcast features the great Alan Gilzean & Big Pat Jennings , Gilzean signed for Spurs purely because he wanted to play in a cup final at Wembley,
Sadly the romance has been outed from the game , mainly by the Champions league & the Money men.
I'll still be cheering on my team in tomorrow's Stella cup tie hoping for a win . I still love the cups , but then again I'm old.
Fittster said:
When you list the achievements of Southampton what's their greatest honor, winning the FA Cup or coming second in the league?
Neither. 25 years (IIRC) successive seasons of top-flight football, when (at times) the odds were against it. The FA Cup win is always going to be a massive deal, of course it is. But I'd swap it for a league win any day of the week. We're not going to win the PL anytime soon, but if we invest in the right areas and work towards it, why not? Otherwise what are we in the league for? FA Cup is massively important, I agree. I think to say most top-flight teams might not be bothered is sailing wide of the mark, slightly. But in my team's case (and I'm sure we're not alone) I can see the logic. A lot of fans bleat on about history all the time. Yes, history's important, but the future even more so.
All IMO of course.
Fittster said:
Paying the bills is for accountants, the point of a sporting team is to win things. By far the majority of teams change divisions over the years.
I'd say without paying the bills there is every chance you won't have a club to win things in this day and age.Fittster said:
It's probably going to be a while before teams like Coventry, Portsmouth or Wigan make it back to the top flight and when/if they do they aren't likely to win the league or even stay in the top division permanently but their places in the history books are secure thanks to cup wins.
Maybe so, but I imagine Pompey fans would have been happier not spending money they didn't have on players they couldn't pay to win an FA Cup and then run out of steam resulting in successive relegations. Fittster said:
Since the start of the permier league only the following clubs haven't been relegated:
Manchester United
Liverpool
Chelsea
Everton
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Only a 3 of those (IHMO) have any realistic probability of winning the league, the others just hang about. Is that really something to aspire to? Are Villa fans chomping at the bit, dreaming of glory at the start of the season?
I should think Villa fans want to see them in Europe again. More likely to achieve that via the PL than the odds of being the single team to win the FA Cup.Manchester United
Liverpool
Chelsea
Everton
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Only a 3 of those (IHMO) have any realistic probability of winning the league, the others just hang about. Is that really something to aspire to? Are Villa fans chomping at the bit, dreaming of glory at the start of the season?
Fittster said:
Did Southampton cease to exist after the 2004-2005 season?
Almost.Fittster said:
The league and a worth while run in the CL are for at max 4 English clubs. A cup run is pretty much the only point the other teams have to exist.
Not disputing your logic, but IMO the point of existing is to progress until you're the best in the world. Winning the FA is a big achievement and a big deal, but consistency and improvement in the PL are more important (to me at least). We're not one of the big teams....I can see a case for teams like those above to go for it in the FA Cup. Likewise 'safe-bet' midtable teams, who have squads big enough to handle both it and the league (assuming they progress). But we don't, yet. Being that we were in the CH two seasons ago, and League one the season before, I'm happier to make sure we stay in the PL. Not to be a yo-yo team, to actually make it stick.Make the Champions League qualification the top 3 in the prem plus the FA Cup winners. If the cup winners finish in the top 3 also, then the runners up in the cup get the spot, not 4th place. If the 2 finalists finish in the top 3, then the losing semi finalists play for a Champions League spot. That'll instantly revive the FA Cup.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Make the Champions League qualification the top 3 in the prem plus the FA Cup winners. If the cup winners finish in the top 3 also, then the runners up in the cup get the spot, not 4th place. If the 2 finalists finish in the top 3, then the losing semi finalists play for a Champions League spot. That'll instantly revive the FA Cup.
Very good idea.Combined with points deductions for diving on a totting up penalty points basis. At the moment, fans don't particularly mind their own players diving. That'll change when individual players get the team docked points.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Make the Champions League qualification the top 3 in the prem plus the FA Cup winners. If the cup winners finish in the top 3 also, then the runners up in the cup get the spot, not 4th place. If the 2 finalists finish in the top 3, then the losing semi finalists play for a Champions League spot. That'll instantly revive the FA Cup.
Good shout. Fittster said:
Since the start of the permier league only the following clubs haven't been relegated:
Manchester United
Liverpool
Chelsea
Everton
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Only a 3 of those (IHMO) have any realistic probability of winning the league, the others just hang about. Is that really something to aspire to? Are Villa fans chomping at the bit, dreaming of glory at the start of the season?
The league and a worth while run in the CL are for at max 4 English clubs. A cup run is pretty much the only point the other teams have to exist.
Since the start of the permier league only the following clubs haven't been relegated & look at the FA Cup wins: Manchester United
Liverpool
Chelsea
Everton
Arsenal
Aston Villa
Tottenham Hotspur
Only a 3 of those (IHMO) have any realistic probability of winning the league, the others just hang about. Is that really something to aspire to? Are Villa fans chomping at the bit, dreaming of glory at the start of the season?
The league and a worth while run in the CL are for at max 4 English clubs. A cup run is pretty much the only point the other teams have to exist.
Edited by Fittster on Friday 3rd January 11:44
Manchester United (4)
Liverpool (3)
Chelsea (6)
Everton (1)
Arsenal (5)
Aston Villa (0)
Tottenham Hotspur (1)
and from the rest..... Portsmouth, Wigan, Man City 1 each. This competition has been dominated by Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal & liverpool for 20 odd years. It would be great if the smaller clubs would fully commit to it but the statistics say they have little chance of anything, so you can understand why they take the line they do with so much at stake. Even during the days before the champions & premier league, the winners rarely came from outside the top teams of the day.
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