The future of Advanced Driving.
Discussion
Following recent conversations with the esteemed group that is the AD section of PH, I am starting a new thread, in this thread I want people to suggest methods, styles etc that we feel should be replacing the old Roadcraft mantras. Let's not use this thread to discuss old stuff like BGOL and Roadcraft, let's see what emerges regarding new methodologies and systems. I'm not going to be arguing the point over things like BGOL and if we all avoid this subject we may take something from the thread that might be fresh, exciting and well worth adopting in our own driving. The ball's in your court folks.
Edited by 25NAD90TUL on Friday 10th January 18:42
25NAD90TUL said:
Following recent conversations with the esteemed group that is the AD section of PH, I am starting a new thread, in this thread I want people to suggest methods, styles etc that we feel should be replacing the old Roadcraft mantras. Let's not use this thread to discuss old stuff like BGOL and Roadcraft, let's see what emerges regarding new methodologies and systems. I'm not going to be arguing the point over things like BGOL and if we all avoid this subject we may take something from the thread that might be fresh, exciting and well worth adopting in our own driving. The ball's in your court folks.
Hmm, I'm sorry to see there have been no responses yet, but hopefully there will be some constructive ones before too long. I'll try and get back to this later.Edited by 25NAD90TUL on Friday 10th January 18:42
Meanwhile I'm glad to see that you haven't abandoned this forum completely, though I must say I think you appear to have misunderstood the general attitude here. I don't think there is actually as much animosity as you seem to have felt.
No matter, we're still communicating, so that's a good start.
My philosophy:
Continuously observe your surroundings
Anticipate the behaviour of others
Indicate your intentions
Don't put yourself in positions where other people won't be expecting you to be
Keep the vehicle balanced as far as possible
Control the vehicle as smoothly as you can and practice being smoother at all times
Continuously observe your surroundings
Anticipate the behaviour of others
Indicate your intentions
Don't put yourself in positions where other people won't be expecting you to be
Keep the vehicle balanced as far as possible
Control the vehicle as smoothly as you can and practice being smoother at all times
The common ground between excellent drivers is not the techniques they use, but the safety smoothness and pace which come from outstanding observation anticipation and planning. As a very advanced driver you should understand the pros and cons of different techniques and make your own choices - by all means take advantage of different courses and coaches but then in the words of VH choose what works for you.
Personally I use different techniques to meet different requirements. Today, driving an old diesel Land Rover round Alpine hairpins, I chose to use rotational steering and BGOL using H&T. But for a legal drive in a different sort of vehicle in the home counties I probably would not use either of those techniques - and I certainly wouldn't if trying to impress an IAM examiner.
Personally I use different techniques to meet different requirements. Today, driving an old diesel Land Rover round Alpine hairpins, I chose to use rotational steering and BGOL using H&T. But for a legal drive in a different sort of vehicle in the home counties I probably would not use either of those techniques - and I certainly wouldn't if trying to impress an IAM examiner.
p1esk said:
Hmm, I'm sorry to see there have been no responses yet, but hopefully there will be some constructive ones before too long. I'll try and get back to this later.
Good responses are now coming in Dave, might take a little while but I think this could well be a damn good thread in time! Some excellent driving talent talking about their ideas and techniques will be great, I'm not this bible-basher, I look forward to hearing what quality drivers, and I'm counting myself in there too, are using on the roads. I'm not stupid and know that there's good drivers on the road who haven't done IAM etc, that have natural talent, one of the best drivers I've ever been a passenger in with was someone who wouldn't have been seen dead with the IAM or the police. Another mechanic, he would call over usually when it was raining in his MK1 Granada 3 litre Ghia and recreate 'Swan Lake' on the road this is, he was never bothered about legality. Glory days mate. Please do come back to this thread Dave, very interested to have a bit of the benefit of your expertise, you must have had a hell of a time of it in the 70s, my favourite period in British motors history, in those days a good car had to be handled with a 'manly firmness' good car control had to be earned, no driver aids in those days!p1esk said:
Meanwhile I'm glad to see that you haven't abandoned this forum completely, though I must say I think you appear to have misunderstood the general attitude here. I don't think there is actually as much animosity as you seem to have felt.
No matter, we're still communicating, so that's a good start.
You know me better than I figured...Seriously Dave thanks so much for that, it means a lot. VH has said I might be in danger of taking things personal. I live and learn, it's all good.No matter, we're still communicating, so that's a good start.
Toltec said:
On the theme of conversations, I often think of driving in traffic as trying to have a conversation with the other people around you and coming to a mutually satisfactory agreement.
I love it when I see good driving out on the road, when it's smooth flowing and drivers are driving responsibly and well, that kind of driving isn't limited to people who do the official AD courses, good driving doesn't need a label or insignia, it speaks for itself, your analogy is a good one.Driving is similar to Music in that to say 'I know it all' is foolish in the extreme, good drivers will still be learning well into old age...'The more I learn, the less I realise I know' is it Pliny or Plato I'm not sure, actually I think it's Socrates. I read once in a biography of a big rig man in the states something along the lines of you still being a baby until you put 2 million miles on your Bulldog Mack!
Thanks for joining the thread, looking forward to hearing from you again Toltec.
MC Bodge said:
My philosophy:
Continuously observe your surroundings
Anticipate the behaviour of others
Indicate your intentions
Don't put yourself in positions where other people won't be expecting you to be
Keep the vehicle balanced as far as possible
Control the vehicle as smoothly as you can and practice being smoother at all times
Very good advise Bodge, thanks for this contribution, good to see you here. Further contribution will be appreciated as well.Continuously observe your surroundings
Anticipate the behaviour of others
Indicate your intentions
Don't put yourself in positions where other people won't be expecting you to be
Keep the vehicle balanced as far as possible
Control the vehicle as smoothly as you can and practice being smoother at all times
Hope we are good, I have read a lot of your stuff that I have SERIOUSLY rated, so let it flow, I for one want to hear what you have to say, a lot to offer this thread I reckon. Cheers.
waremark said:
The common ground between excellent drivers is not the techniques they use, but the safety smoothness and pace which come from outstanding observation anticipation and planning. As a very advanced driver you should understand the pros and cons of different techniques and make your own choices - by all means take advantage of different courses and coaches but then in the words of VH choose what works for you.
Personally I use different techniques to meet different requirements. Today, driving an old diesel Land Rover round Alpine hairpins, I chose to use rotational steering and BGOL using H&T. But for a legal drive in a different sort of vehicle in the home counties I probably would not use either of those techniques - and I certainly wouldn't if trying to impress an IAM examiner.
Very nicely stated Waremark, and very good advise, thank you. You will know that my name is a LR model, one of a few I have, you could say I collect them. The 2.5 Naturally Aspirated is my favourite engine, I can't stand doing the head gasket on an ally head, they're always warped. The NAD 12J engine has the timing belt rather than chain and the cast iron head. Having said that my 2a petrol runs like an old jag, better than a lot I've seen, you stand your cup on the rocker cover and don't spill a drop at tickover and it revs like an e-type and is virtually silent, I don't like loud lannys much, unless they're V8 although the NAD is very loud.Personally I use different techniques to meet different requirements. Today, driving an old diesel Land Rover round Alpine hairpins, I chose to use rotational steering and BGOL using H&T. But for a legal drive in a different sort of vehicle in the home counties I probably would not use either of those techniques - and I certainly wouldn't if trying to impress an IAM examiner.
I'd have liked to have been there, I'm rarely the passenger in a lanny, usually the driver all the time!
Cheers Waremark and please feel free to post, looking forward to your input.
A few thoughts....
Firstly, I'm new to the AD forum, so go easy on me I've never taken any AD instruction or courses, so, not being familiar with established methods or systems I'm not really qualified to comment on possible alternatives. I have though been a road user for the best part of 45 years, and have owned fast bikes and quite a variety of cars. Competency is invariably defined as a combination of training, knowledge, and experience. I don't have the training, I do have experience, although that said we have a saying in the industry I work in which states that 'experience isn't what you've done, it's what you've you've learnt from what you've done'
I work offshore, in a hazardous environment, and safety is paramount in everything we do. Over the years, safe systems of work have evolved, and every company involved in the offshore industry has to demonstrate that they have a robust safety management system, which meets defined standards.
Safety is very much an attitude of mind, 'you are your own safety officer', and looking after each other is a key element to ensuring a safe place of work. All the operating (oil) company's, and major contractors use a 'safety observation' system offshore, which every individual is encouraged to use. This typically takes the form of a 'safety observation card' (SOC), or 'hazard observation card' (HOC). Unsafe acts or unsafe situations are addressed immediately, and everyone has the right to 'stop the job'. The observation cards are an invaluable tool to bring peoples attention to daily hazards, and provide 'trend analysis', even for something as simple as spills in the accommodation which have not been mopped up and present a slip hazard. It's a means of encouraging awareness of what's going on around you, of actively looking for hazards or potential hazards, and taking appropriate action.
So, when I go to work, I know (most of the time) that my co-workers have their own safety, and mine, in mind. It's a culture which becomes a part of your daily life, and is there to make sure that everyone goes home to their families safe and well.
Then I get home and take my car out on the public highway. Here I am in a totally different environment, where safety is random, and taking care of each other is a concept many road users don't appear to be aware of. Here, on the roads, I see the opposite of what I see in the workplace, I see individuals performing deliberate actions that put others at risk. How do you stop this??
Currently, learning to be a safer driver (or becoming less of a hazard to others) is a voluntary thing. In the offshore industry newbies have to undergo 'basic safety training' before they can travel offshore, and once their, the training continues, and safety awareness training continues. On the roads in the UK, in my opinion a more hazardous environment than the one we have offshore, you do the basics (lessons and a driving test), and that's it.
I don't know what methods or systems different to the current 'advanced' driving one's would be, but it does seem to me that in order to address the situation, it's not necessarily (or in the first instance) 'driving skills' that need looking at, it's the safety culture, and an individuals respect for the safety and wellbeing of the other folk that share the road with them.
It does seem to me that those doing AD courses already have this safety mindset, and of their own volition are looking to improve their skills to achieve the safety standards they aspire to.
Sorry if I've woffled, and hope this is of some use to the topic....
Chilli
Firstly, I'm new to the AD forum, so go easy on me
I've never taken any AD instruction or courses, so, not being familiar with established methods or systems I'm not really qualified to comment on possible alternatives. I have though been a road user for the best part of 45 years, and have owned fast bikes and quite a variety of cars. Competency is invariably defined as a combination of training, knowledge, and experience. I don't have the training, I do have experience, although that said we have a saying in the industry I work in which states that 'experience isn't what you've done, it's what you've you've learnt from what you've done' I work offshore, in a hazardous environment, and safety is paramount in everything we do. Over the years, safe systems of work have evolved, and every company involved in the offshore industry has to demonstrate that they have a robust safety management system, which meets defined standards.
Safety is very much an attitude of mind, 'you are your own safety officer', and looking after each other is a key element to ensuring a safe place of work. All the operating (oil) company's, and major contractors use a 'safety observation' system offshore, which every individual is encouraged to use. This typically takes the form of a 'safety observation card' (SOC), or 'hazard observation card' (HOC). Unsafe acts or unsafe situations are addressed immediately, and everyone has the right to 'stop the job'. The observation cards are an invaluable tool to bring peoples attention to daily hazards, and provide 'trend analysis', even for something as simple as spills in the accommodation which have not been mopped up and present a slip hazard. It's a means of encouraging awareness of what's going on around you, of actively looking for hazards or potential hazards, and taking appropriate action.
So, when I go to work, I know (most of the time) that my co-workers have their own safety, and mine, in mind. It's a culture which becomes a part of your daily life, and is there to make sure that everyone goes home to their families safe and well.
Then I get home and take my car out on the public highway. Here I am in a totally different environment, where safety is random, and taking care of each other is a concept many road users don't appear to be aware of. Here, on the roads, I see the opposite of what I see in the workplace, I see individuals performing deliberate actions that put others at risk. How do you stop this??
Currently, learning to be a safer driver (or becoming less of a hazard to others) is a voluntary thing. In the offshore industry newbies have to undergo 'basic safety training' before they can travel offshore, and once their, the training continues, and safety awareness training continues. On the roads in the UK, in my opinion a more hazardous environment than the one we have offshore, you do the basics (lessons and a driving test), and that's it.
I don't know what methods or systems different to the current 'advanced' driving one's would be, but it does seem to me that in order to address the situation, it's not necessarily (or in the first instance) 'driving skills' that need looking at, it's the safety culture, and an individuals respect for the safety and wellbeing of the other folk that share the road with them.
It does seem to me that those doing AD courses already have this safety mindset, and of their own volition are looking to improve their skills to achieve the safety standards they aspire to.
Sorry if I've woffled, and hope this is of some use to the topic....
Chilli
R0G said:
Choose the SAFEST of all the options in any given situation
Knowing what the options are in the first place is key to the above
If you are in sight of a policeman or a traffic camera, then LEGALITY takes top billing. It is to be hoped that SAFETY is not far behind, in second place, though.Knowing what the options are in the first place is key to the above
Seriously.
ChilliWhizz said:
A few thoughts....
Firstly, I'm new to the AD forum, <snip> Sorry if I've woffled, and hope this is of some use to the topic....
Chilli
Welcome to the AD forums, it isn't always about training, but it is always about thinking. Advanced Drivers are a thinking bunch, that's why we hardly ever agree, as you have seen. We all agree on safety and responsibility, that's the main thing.Firstly, I'm new to the AD forum, <snip> Sorry if I've woffled, and hope this is of some use to the topic....
Chilli
You haven't waffled, your contribution is appreciated, sounds like you're in a good place driving wise, your thoughts make a lot of sense, thank you.
ChillyW, another one here who did not find your post at all waffly. Correct to point out that safety is more about attitude than about skills. But I would say that Advanced Driving is about skills as well as safety and that there is an extent to which safety is a bi-product of the skills, so this is all slightly circular.
R0G said:
Cliftonite said:
If you are in sight of a policeman or a traffic camera, then LEGALITY takes top billing. It is to be hoped that SAFETY is not far behind, in second place, though.
Seriously.
SAFETY always takes top billing over legalitySeriously.
SAFE
LEGAL
CONVENIENT (as poss)
waremark said:
Advanced Driving is about skills as well as safety and that there is an extent to which safety is a bi-product of the skills, so this is all slightly circular.
Agreed! training (learning new skills or honing existing ones) should make you less of a risk to yourself, and others on the road, and improve your powers of anticipation (of what others might be about to do). I think most agree that those that have good experience of riding motorcycles have a heightened awareness of what other road users might be about to do... (speaking as a sometimes biker..).This however does only apply to those who volunteer for AD tuition. Maybe I'm a bit off topic here, if a new method or system is considered only as an alternative to existing systems then will it not attract the same like minded people that have have for many years benefitted from 'the old ways'? i.e., people who already have an interest in road safety and wish to contribute by making themselves 'safer' drivers?
If a new method or system is constructed, surely it would be good if it in some way attracted people who don't have that inherent sense of what is safe and what isn't. Teaching someone not to drive two lengths behind the car in front when doing 70mph isn't teaching them a skill (IMO), but if they can be disuaded from such actions through training it would make the roads a safer place, which surely must be the aim of AD?
What I'm really talking about is common sense, which, as we all know, isn't particularly common.... No apologies for waffling this time
Chilli
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