VW Touran - hard start, lumpy idle, hesitation - injectors??
Discussion
Hi all. First thread on this forum and glad to have found a site with such knowledgeable folk.
I have a 2004 VW Touran with the 2.0TDi AZV Engine. This has a DOHC engine. To get to any of the injectors and glow plugs you have to remove the rocker cover.
I have been gradually trying to fix the issue with no results so am asking for some help / pointers!
The car began being difficult to start about 2 months ago. So much that sometimes the battery ran completely flat trying.
When the car initially fires up, it is then much easier to start, but takes about 5 seconds of cranking before firing into life - definitely not right.
It seems to be if sat for 12 hours its almost a non starter. If sat for 8 hours it takes 30 secs or so. If sat for anything less than 1 hour fires after about 5-10 seconds.
At about the same time the car was also displaying hesitation under load between 1,000 and 2,500rpm.
The car was displaying the same hesitation and juddering in every gear, but only under load when the accellerator was pressed. The harder you pressed, the more the judder.
On initial startup and when cold there was a fair amount of black smoke. Also seemed to dump the same amount of smoke behind when accelerating hard.
As a hard working dad of 4 with a single income I'm on a very tight budget and so am doing the work myself, as having a specialist quoting figures of £1200 upwards to diagnose and complete all the work is extremely ££££!
1) At first I thought a battery issue, but battery checked and it is in order. Charging system is in order.
2) Next I installed a new MAF sensor with absolutely no change.
3) Next I took off the EGR valve. It wasn't too coked up, but cleaned thoroughly and reassembled. Absolutely no change. Vacuum checked and its working affects the engine when running by dropping the revs- diaphragm must be intact and appears to be working as it should. Making all noises as it should and is opening and closing freely.
4) Glow plugs checked and they are all at the correct resistance (although I don't think glow plugs would cause hesitation issue when engine is at operating temp?) Checked they were all seated correctly. I had replaced the glow plugs last winter after it was hard to start but didn't have the poor running issues, only starting issues.
5) Air filter replaced with new - no change.
6) Fuel filter replaced with new - old one was surprisingly black. I bottled all of the old diesel that was around the filter and it was very black which alarmed me. This has sat for the best part of 7 days now in a clear bottle. I thought it was soot initially. However, today all the black has settled to the bottom, when I disturb the fluid the black seems to be LIQUID - ie engine oil? I believe this may be symptomatic of an injector issue.
I took a video today which can be seen below in a youtube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKcDtumb7c
7) Took to a VW diesel specialist who plugged it in and said the logged code is a misfire on cylinder 2.
He stated that it was either going to be
a) Injector Wiring loom
b) Faulty injector
c) Worn camshaft and lifters/buckets
8) A common fault is the wiring loom, according to the specialist and lots of anecdotal evidence, talking of the wiring loom deteriorating due to being in the hot engine oil over time. So I shell out about £100 to VW for a brand new wiring loom. Installed (pig of a job to get the block connector in!!!!) - absolutely no change. (As a side issue, I would like to test the old one - does anyone know what the resistances should be of the injector loom??)
9) Brought the vehicle home and opened the top up again. I did a visual inspection on the cam lobes for wear. I assumed that if C2 was misfiring, the lobes on C2 would be worn, but checked all of them anyway. No unusual wear all visible on the cams. The chamfered edges are all correct and there is no flattening of the lobes at all.
10) After calling an injection specialist I was advised that injector issues can be diagnosed by a value test. He stated that the spray pattern on these being 'off' or the injector being clogged is unheard of. I completed this myself and had all injectors reading the same value of 1.3.
So now I am at a bit of a loss.
Some people have mentioned air in the fuel or not enough pressure from the tandem pump, but surely this would show on all four cylinders and not just one??
I suspect that the seals might be faulty on one of the injectors, hence the appearance of oil in the diesel. I suspect as it showed a C2 misfire, this will be on the injector on C2. Would it be advisable to change these seals or would you change them all - for example if its a fault on a seal on C3 could is show a misfire on C2?
Would this be able to be diagnosed further with a compression test through the glowplug ports to identify the leaky culprit, if any? Am I right in thinking that if a leaky seal between the chamber and the fuel inlet on the injector, compression would be lost through that leak?
Seal kits are about £15 per injector, so all four would be £60 plus the purchase of several tools to complete the job - I reckon it would be about another £150 on tools. (DTI gauge with stand, 2 x different multispline sockets, injector remover, angle gauge)
Can anyone give any pointers please. I am keen to get this sorted ASAP but dont want to throw money down the drain at the same time!! It happens in 3's, just after christmas had a blowout on my trailer which set me back £200 and then the window regulator buggered up as well which is costing another small fortune. So running out of finances but need the car!
Almost faultless motoring so far. I am quite good mechanically but am more used to petrol motorbike engines! I will update in due course to any help /suggestions posted
I have a 2004 VW Touran with the 2.0TDi AZV Engine. This has a DOHC engine. To get to any of the injectors and glow plugs you have to remove the rocker cover.
I have been gradually trying to fix the issue with no results so am asking for some help / pointers!
The car began being difficult to start about 2 months ago. So much that sometimes the battery ran completely flat trying.
When the car initially fires up, it is then much easier to start, but takes about 5 seconds of cranking before firing into life - definitely not right.
It seems to be if sat for 12 hours its almost a non starter. If sat for 8 hours it takes 30 secs or so. If sat for anything less than 1 hour fires after about 5-10 seconds.
At about the same time the car was also displaying hesitation under load between 1,000 and 2,500rpm.
The car was displaying the same hesitation and juddering in every gear, but only under load when the accellerator was pressed. The harder you pressed, the more the judder.
On initial startup and when cold there was a fair amount of black smoke. Also seemed to dump the same amount of smoke behind when accelerating hard.
As a hard working dad of 4 with a single income I'm on a very tight budget and so am doing the work myself, as having a specialist quoting figures of £1200 upwards to diagnose and complete all the work is extremely ££££!
1) At first I thought a battery issue, but battery checked and it is in order. Charging system is in order.
2) Next I installed a new MAF sensor with absolutely no change.
3) Next I took off the EGR valve. It wasn't too coked up, but cleaned thoroughly and reassembled. Absolutely no change. Vacuum checked and its working affects the engine when running by dropping the revs- diaphragm must be intact and appears to be working as it should. Making all noises as it should and is opening and closing freely.
4) Glow plugs checked and they are all at the correct resistance (although I don't think glow plugs would cause hesitation issue when engine is at operating temp?) Checked they were all seated correctly. I had replaced the glow plugs last winter after it was hard to start but didn't have the poor running issues, only starting issues.
5) Air filter replaced with new - no change.
6) Fuel filter replaced with new - old one was surprisingly black. I bottled all of the old diesel that was around the filter and it was very black which alarmed me. This has sat for the best part of 7 days now in a clear bottle. I thought it was soot initially. However, today all the black has settled to the bottom, when I disturb the fluid the black seems to be LIQUID - ie engine oil? I believe this may be symptomatic of an injector issue.
I took a video today which can be seen below in a youtube clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKcDtumb7c
7) Took to a VW diesel specialist who plugged it in and said the logged code is a misfire on cylinder 2.
He stated that it was either going to be
a) Injector Wiring loom
b) Faulty injector
c) Worn camshaft and lifters/buckets
8) A common fault is the wiring loom, according to the specialist and lots of anecdotal evidence, talking of the wiring loom deteriorating due to being in the hot engine oil over time. So I shell out about £100 to VW for a brand new wiring loom. Installed (pig of a job to get the block connector in!!!!) - absolutely no change. (As a side issue, I would like to test the old one - does anyone know what the resistances should be of the injector loom??)
9) Brought the vehicle home and opened the top up again. I did a visual inspection on the cam lobes for wear. I assumed that if C2 was misfiring, the lobes on C2 would be worn, but checked all of them anyway. No unusual wear all visible on the cams. The chamfered edges are all correct and there is no flattening of the lobes at all.
10) After calling an injection specialist I was advised that injector issues can be diagnosed by a value test. He stated that the spray pattern on these being 'off' or the injector being clogged is unheard of. I completed this myself and had all injectors reading the same value of 1.3.
So now I am at a bit of a loss.
Some people have mentioned air in the fuel or not enough pressure from the tandem pump, but surely this would show on all four cylinders and not just one??
I suspect that the seals might be faulty on one of the injectors, hence the appearance of oil in the diesel. I suspect as it showed a C2 misfire, this will be on the injector on C2. Would it be advisable to change these seals or would you change them all - for example if its a fault on a seal on C3 could is show a misfire on C2?
Would this be able to be diagnosed further with a compression test through the glowplug ports to identify the leaky culprit, if any? Am I right in thinking that if a leaky seal between the chamber and the fuel inlet on the injector, compression would be lost through that leak?
Seal kits are about £15 per injector, so all four would be £60 plus the purchase of several tools to complete the job - I reckon it would be about another £150 on tools. (DTI gauge with stand, 2 x different multispline sockets, injector remover, angle gauge)
Can anyone give any pointers please. I am keen to get this sorted ASAP but dont want to throw money down the drain at the same time!! It happens in 3's, just after christmas had a blowout on my trailer which set me back £200 and then the window regulator buggered up as well which is costing another small fortune. So running out of finances but need the car!
Almost faultless motoring so far. I am quite good mechanically but am more used to petrol motorbike engines! I will update in due course to any help /suggestions posted
I am no diesel expert unfortunately, and certainly not on your car either, but as soon as you said about the difficulty starting I thought Glow plugs, battery/alternator/connections, or injectors.
When you also mantioned the hesitation/stutter I thought injectors/missfire.
Then you basically confirmed this, so here is my 2p for what it is worth.
You have done all the right things so far, but there are a couple of others worth looking at/for.
Get a known good spare injector & try it in 2.
Get the diesel drained, tank cleaned & other injectors ultrasonically cleaned.
Sorry I can't be more specific, but these would be what I would be trying after what you have done already.
When you also mantioned the hesitation/stutter I thought injectors/missfire.
Then you basically confirmed this, so here is my 2p for what it is worth.
You have done all the right things so far, but there are a couple of others worth looking at/for.
Get a known good spare injector & try it in 2.
Get the diesel drained, tank cleaned & other injectors ultrasonically cleaned.
Sorry I can't be more specific, but these would be what I would be trying after what you have done already.
You need to check the rail pressure when cranking during the non start period, should be a minimum of 300 bar, it should also get that pressure almost instantly, you also need to check the injector correction values when its idling to give you an indication on what the injectors are doing.
You really need to pay someone who knows diesels to diag it properly as you will be throwing good money after bad, i know as i work for a diesel specialist
and most of our work is dealers and indi garages who just don't know that much about oil burners.
Oil in diesel can be caused usually by the high pressure injection pump failing and letting oil into the fuel system or visa versa
As for the wiring loom you changed you should be testing it for continuity rather than resistance.
HTH
You really need to pay someone who knows diesels to diag it properly as you will be throwing good money after bad, i know as i work for a diesel specialist
and most of our work is dealers and indi garages who just don't know that much about oil burners.
Oil in diesel can be caused usually by the high pressure injection pump failing and letting oil into the fuel system or visa versa
As for the wiring loom you changed you should be testing it for continuity rather than resistance.
HTH
Edited by Disco_Biscuit on Sunday 12th January 21:43
Thanks Disco Biscuit.
I did mean continuity - bought a ohmeter with continuity tester just for this.
As sad as it is, I would rather buy the tools and gain knowledge than pay a garage. Mainly because I don't know any reputable ones near me.
With this being a PD engine it has a tandem pump on the side of the engine. I take it you mean 300psi at the tandem pump output?
I would have thought if it was a fuel pressure issue that it would have affected all of the injectors, or more the inhjectors furthest from the pump?
Do you have any thought about the oil appearing in the diesel (theres a link to a vid halfway up)
Any advice really appreciated.
I did mean continuity - bought a ohmeter with continuity tester just for this.
As sad as it is, I would rather buy the tools and gain knowledge than pay a garage. Mainly because I don't know any reputable ones near me.
With this being a PD engine it has a tandem pump on the side of the engine. I take it you mean 300psi at the tandem pump output?
I would have thought if it was a fuel pressure issue that it would have affected all of the injectors, or more the inhjectors furthest from the pump?
Do you have any thought about the oil appearing in the diesel (theres a link to a vid halfway up)
Any advice really appreciated.
Edited by lukeykookey on Sunday 12th January 22:11
Edited by lukeykookey on Sunday 12th January 22:13
Sorry got my figures wrong, The fuel pump in the tank will pump fuel to the tandem pump at half a bar.If half a bar is found before the tandem pump then this is ok.Once the engine starts the tandem pump will increase the pressure to 6.0 bar and then the injectors increase it again to 1800 bar ish.
If its not starting you need to check pressures and 1st port of call
Oil in the fuel is most probably failed tandem pump, the injectors use very fine holes that more than likely contaminated fuel could have blocked them slightly.
Disco_Biscuit said:
Sorry got my figures wrong, The fuel pump in the tank will pump fuel to the tandem pump at half a bar.If half a bar is found before the tandem pump then this is ok.Once the engine starts the tandem pump will increase the pressure to 6.0 bar and then the injectors increase it again to 1800 bar ish.
If its not starting you need to check pressures and 1st port of call
Oil in the fuel is most probably failed tandem pump, the injectors use very fine holes that more than likely contaminated fuel could have blocked them slightly.
OK thanks for the clarification. I will check them and report backIf its not starting you need to check pressures and 1st port of call
Oil in the fuel is most probably failed tandem pump, the injectors use very fine holes that more than likely contaminated fuel could have blocked them slightly.
Hi guys, have you had any luck sorting this out? I'm running an Altea 2.0tdi AZV and have the same symptoms. The air temp doesn't matter, when the engine is cold. It takes 3-5 (10-20sec) tries with throttle to the floor, to start the engine. White smoke comming out of the exhaust (so this means unburned fuel - fuel system ok) New starter, battery checked : fine. plugs checked : also fine. The only thing I didn't check is the compression, but I don't get any fault codes. It sounds like the starter is spinning but not exactly like the engine was. Then at some point 3/4th try, it sounds like the engine starts to spin, more and more until it starts. After couple of minutes of running , it seems to start easier, but still needs couple of seconds though, and doesn't need the throttle. I'm ripping my hair out, trying to find a solution. Will appreciate any help.
Cheers,
Maciek
Cheers,
Maciek
Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff