MSV Team Trophy & Trackday Trophy 2014
Discussion
thanks Steve. I actually thought it did suit the car 
love the track.
Have only driven cadwell once and that was in the trackday trophy. Didn't like the place at all if I'm honest.
I have also had my car mapped on a more traditional rolling road. Came out as 160wbhp. But that extra 7bhp for me is a lot of weight. Either way it doesn't matter. Still having a lot of fun and I know there is more to come from the handling. Was trying a new tyre at brands and although really really consistent across the long stint they are only 190mm tread width, biscuit rims! Going back to a 208mm tyre for snett.
Am missing silverstone due to gearbox rebuild but will make more of an effort to come say hello at snett. It just always seems so tight on time and I always end up spannering on the car between sessions.
good luck to those at silverstone, see you at snett. Hopefully in the 205 on sat and a podium prep m3 on Sunday if all goes to plan!
Regards,
Henry.
love the track.Have only driven cadwell once and that was in the trackday trophy. Didn't like the place at all if I'm honest.
I have also had my car mapped on a more traditional rolling road. Came out as 160wbhp. But that extra 7bhp for me is a lot of weight. Either way it doesn't matter. Still having a lot of fun and I know there is more to come from the handling. Was trying a new tyre at brands and although really really consistent across the long stint they are only 190mm tread width, biscuit rims! Going back to a 208mm tyre for snett.
Am missing silverstone due to gearbox rebuild but will make more of an effort to come say hello at snett. It just always seems so tight on time and I always end up spannering on the car between sessions.
good luck to those at silverstone, see you at snett. Hopefully in the 205 on sat and a podium prep m3 on Sunday if all goes to plan!
Regards,
Henry.
Hi Steve,
Yeah, it's tricky. Although I weigh 114kgs so not quite so bad. There's also ways I can add weight to the car that aren't technically ballast (passenger seat, etc.). Its just one of the issues of running such a naturally light car. My last Elise was fully road legal and completely standard apart from removing the radio and heater (just so I had somewhere to put the extinguisher) and it was still sub-700kgs with a 6-point cage. I reckon if you chucked plenty money at it and really tried you could get sub-600kgs but then I'd have to run a standard 1.4 engine!
Gonna try to get to Brands in November, with or without the car.
The dyno differences is a bit of an issue and I think it would be better to just use one dyno for all tests. Like Henry says, small differences can lead to having to run quite a lot of extra weight. I'd like to see tighter policing on ECU maps too. Particularly multi-map capable ECUs.
No matter what you do though, people will always find a way to cheat if they want to. Its a shame when its such a friendly series and I see no reason for it to be that competitive.
Dan
Yeah, it's tricky. Although I weigh 114kgs so not quite so bad. There's also ways I can add weight to the car that aren't technically ballast (passenger seat, etc.). Its just one of the issues of running such a naturally light car. My last Elise was fully road legal and completely standard apart from removing the radio and heater (just so I had somewhere to put the extinguisher) and it was still sub-700kgs with a 6-point cage. I reckon if you chucked plenty money at it and really tried you could get sub-600kgs but then I'd have to run a standard 1.4 engine!
Gonna try to get to Brands in November, with or without the car.
The dyno differences is a bit of an issue and I think it would be better to just use one dyno for all tests. Like Henry says, small differences can lead to having to run quite a lot of extra weight. I'd like to see tighter policing on ECU maps too. Particularly multi-map capable ECUs.
No matter what you do though, people will always find a way to cheat if they want to. Its a shame when its such a friendly series and I see no reason for it to be that competitive.
Dan
Hi Steve,
Apologies from me as well, I don't really want to go about falsely accusing people! I guess in hindsight I was thinking of purely the mechanical aspect but obviously there's a huge amount in set up, tyres, and lap time analysis. If anything it gives me a good indication of just what a well set up car and knowledge of the circuit can do for lap times. This is the first year of properly developing my car and its still more a road car than race car so Im looking even more forward to getting all these fine details sorted. Im at Snetterton in Oct so looking forward to seeing what advances weve made since April.
Id never considered that some people struggle to make weight, not a problem I have, my car is 1400kg with me in it and theres maybe another 50kgs tops to come out!
Apologies from me as well, I don't really want to go about falsely accusing people! I guess in hindsight I was thinking of purely the mechanical aspect but obviously there's a huge amount in set up, tyres, and lap time analysis. If anything it gives me a good indication of just what a well set up car and knowledge of the circuit can do for lap times. This is the first year of properly developing my car and its still more a road car than race car so Im looking even more forward to getting all these fine details sorted. Im at Snetterton in Oct so looking forward to seeing what advances weve made since April.
Id never considered that some people struggle to make weight, not a problem I have, my car is 1400kg with me in it and theres maybe another 50kgs tops to come out!
djroadboy said:
No matter what you do though, people will always find a way to cheat if they want to. Its a shame when its such a friendly series and I see no reason for it to be that competitive.
Dan
No glory without honour. Plus, it's only a plastic trophy that your missus makes you put in the garage because it's an eyesore Dan
Those that do it say, "everyone else is doing it". We aren't. So it doesn't rub
It is a really friendly series and we need to keep it that way. MSV really need to bring the dyno more often. And ref the dyno differences, I'd be happy over winter to take mine to both to see if there is a difference. Would be an epic run round from Sheffield mind...
fiveoclockhero1 said:
This, weighing at the end of the race is almost pointless, I dont know why they bother
Weight is one of the two variables. I think it makes total sense to check wight every race, especially if you're required to carry ballast per your registered P/W, inc the aero/sequential penalty ballast.
steeviegeebies said:
Weight is one of the two variables. I think it makes total sense to check wight every race, especially if you're required to carry ballast per your registered P/W, inc the aero/sequential penalty ballast.
Its pointless because people know they're not going to get power tested at the circuit so if they're going to cheat they cheat on the power. There is next to no need to cheat on the weight and risk getting caught. All it is is MSV saying "look we're doing something to combat cheating", I'd like to know how many they've caught underweight, it would be nothing compared to how many they'd catch over power. Hi guys
I thoroughly enjoyed joining you at Cadwell park ( green-orange mx5 )
When I race in max5 we get our weight checked at almost every meeting.
Last sat at oulton we got checked after quali and after the race's. Our cars was also put up on the ramp and exhaust diameter and roll bar diameter checked. We also have a dyno visit at random twice a season to check bhp.
Yes I know we are a one make championship but thought I'd just point out it can be done.....
Paul
Ps hope to join you again soon.
I thoroughly enjoyed joining you at Cadwell park ( green-orange mx5 )
When I race in max5 we get our weight checked at almost every meeting.
Last sat at oulton we got checked after quali and after the race's. Our cars was also put up on the ramp and exhaust diameter and roll bar diameter checked. We also have a dyno visit at random twice a season to check bhp.
Yes I know we are a one make championship but thought I'd just point out it can be done.....
Paul
Ps hope to join you again soon.
fiveoclockhero1 said:
Its pointless because people know they're not going to get power tested at the circuit so if they're going to cheat they cheat on the power. There is next to no need to cheat on the weight and risk getting caught. All it is is MSV saying "look we're doing something to combat cheating", I'd like to know how many they've caught underweight, it would be nothing compared to how many they'd catch over power.
Best to go to every race assuming you will be power tested (because they've randomly power tested in the past) and obviously assume we'll get weighed. It isn't pointless. I think you probably have to carry ballast in the VX220. How else are they meant to make sure you do?Trek930 said:
Hi Steve,
Apologies from me as well, I don't really want to go about falsely accusing people! I guess in hindsight I was thinking of purely the mechanical aspect but obviously there's a huge amount in set up, tyres, and lap time analysis. If anything it gives me a good indication of just what a well set up car and knowledge of the circuit can do for lap times. This is the first year of properly developing my car and its still more a road car than race car so Im looking even more forward to getting all these fine details sorted. Im at Snetterton in Oct so looking forward to seeing what advances weve made since April.
Id never considered that some people struggle to make weight, not a problem I have, my car is 1400kg with me in it and theres maybe another 50kgs tops to come out!
No worries - when it comes to doubting the integrity of other racers, I'm as cynical as anyone. It's an aspect of racing that'll always exist - as long as there are rules we'll suspect our competitors of braking them!Apologies from me as well, I don't really want to go about falsely accusing people! I guess in hindsight I was thinking of purely the mechanical aspect but obviously there's a huge amount in set up, tyres, and lap time analysis. If anything it gives me a good indication of just what a well set up car and knowledge of the circuit can do for lap times. This is the first year of properly developing my car and its still more a road car than race car so Im looking even more forward to getting all these fine details sorted. Im at Snetterton in Oct so looking forward to seeing what advances weve made since April.
Id never considered that some people struggle to make weight, not a problem I have, my car is 1400kg with me in it and theres maybe another 50kgs tops to come out!
steeviegeebies said:
fiveoclockhero1 said:
Its pointless because people know they're not going to get power tested at the circuit so if they're going to cheat they cheat on the power. There is next to no need to cheat on the weight and risk getting caught. All it is is MSV saying "look we're doing something to combat cheating", I'd like to know how many they've caught underweight, it would be nothing compared to how many they'd catch over power.
Best to go to every race assuming you will be power tested (because they've randomly power tested in the past) and obviously assume we'll get weighed. It isn't pointless. I think you probably have to carry ballast in the VX220. How else are they meant to make sure you do?I believe some folk were found underweight at the Oulton TT the next round. Did MSVR not weight everyone at that round?
roddo said:
Hi guys
I thoroughly enjoyed joining you at Cadwell park ( green-orange mx5 )
When I race in max5 we get our weight checked at almost every meeting.
Last sat at oulton we got checked after quali and after the race's. Our cars was also put up on the ramp and exhaust diameter and roll bar diameter checked. We also have a dyno visit at random twice a season to check bhp.
Yes I know we are a one make championship but thought I'd just point out it can be done.....
Paul
Ps hope to join you again soon.
MSVR seem reluctant to bring the dyno to a round. Money probably. I thoroughly enjoyed joining you at Cadwell park ( green-orange mx5 )
When I race in max5 we get our weight checked at almost every meeting.
Last sat at oulton we got checked after quali and after the race's. Our cars was also put up on the ramp and exhaust diameter and roll bar diameter checked. We also have a dyno visit at random twice a season to check bhp.
Yes I know we are a one make championship but thought I'd just point out it can be done.....
Paul
Ps hope to join you again soon.
We had a great battle at Cadwell Paul. Really enjoyed it. Hopefully see you at Snet or Brands Indy for the last round. 22nd Nov if you can make it.
staceyboy said:
If there was no weighing then it would end up like at Rockingham where some folk realised there was no scales.
I believe some folk were found underweight at the Oulton TT the next round. Did MSVR not weight everyone at that round?
I would imagine you're referring to us as you or your associates were seen to look into our car at Rockingham after the race when we won and comment something along the lines of "yes, they've taken it out". Yes we did take a 23kg lead block out and put it back in over the front wheels as we were getting understeer in qualifying. We run 85kg of ballast spread around the car. Some in the passenger area, some in the passenger door, some behind the drivers seat and some over the front wheels in the battery area. We could easily have taken it out from somewhere else where it wouldnt have been visible but we had nothing to hide. I'm sponsored by and drive with the owner of Back on Track Motorsport, a highly regarded Lotus independant with an impeccable reputation. There is too much to lose by cheating on a few kgs in a novice series. I believe some folk were found underweight at the Oulton TT the next round. Did MSVR not weight everyone at that round?
I know you also were put out about our rear wing. We played it by the book with the rear wing. We submitted photographs of it fitted to the car to Nick Rice who consulted with scrutineers and we were told it was fine. At our first race at Oulton Park in 2013 it was passed by scrutineers. We did well in that race, we finished second, we were weighed afterwards and during this we were asked to drop the wing below the roof line, we did this. We then competed in 15 or more races with the wing and it was deemed to be ok. When we then got an email from Lee-Anne regarding body silhouette we removed it, we weren't asked to directly but we decided if its causing conflict we would remove it, there isn't much gain from it on most tracks anyway, we even put in another 1kg in ballast to compensate. On more than one occasion we have been in with the Clerk of Course regarding suspect cars and Nick Rice will confirm the many conversations I've had with him about this. We dont cheat, we have too much to lose and also, like you, I'm of the mind any success gained would be a hollow victory.
Edited by fiveoclockhero1 on Thursday 21st August 12:02
fiveoclockhero1 said:
I would imagine you're referring to us as you or your associates were seen to look into our car at Rockingham after the race when we won and comment something along the lines of "yes, they've taken it out". Yes we did take a 23kg lead block out and put it back in over the front wheels as we were getting understeer in qualifying. We run 85kg of ballast spread around the car. Some in the passenger area, some in the passenger door, some behind the drivers seat and some over the front wheels in the battery area. We could easily have taken it out from somewhere else where it wouldnt have been visible but we had nothing to hide. I'm sponsored by and drive with the owner of Back on Track Motorsport, a highly regarded Lotus independant with an impeccable reputation. There is too much to lose by cheating on a few kgs in a novice series.
I know you also were put out about our rear wing. We played it by the book with the rear wing. We submitted photographs of it fitted to the car to Nick Rice who consulted with scrutineers and we were told it was fine. At our first race at Oulton Park in 2013 it was passed by scrutineers. We did well in that race, we finished second, we were weighed afterwards and during this we were asked to drop the wing below the roof line, we did this. We then competed in 15 or more races with the wing and it was deemed to be ok. When we then got an email from Lee-Anne regarding body silhouette we removed it, we weren't asked to directly but we decided if its causing conflict we would remove it, there isn't much gain from it on most tracks anyway, we even put in another 1kg in ballast to compensate. On more than one occasion we have been in with the Clerk of Course regarding suspect cars and Nick Rice will confirm the many conversations I've had with him about this. We dont cheat, we have too much to lose and also, like you, I'm of the mind any success gained would be a hollow victory.
That's interesting regarding the ballast, I thought the rules were that it had to be positioned where the passenger would normally sit ?I know you also were put out about our rear wing. We played it by the book with the rear wing. We submitted photographs of it fitted to the car to Nick Rice who consulted with scrutineers and we were told it was fine. At our first race at Oulton Park in 2013 it was passed by scrutineers. We did well in that race, we finished second, we were weighed afterwards and during this we were asked to drop the wing below the roof line, we did this. We then competed in 15 or more races with the wing and it was deemed to be ok. When we then got an email from Lee-Anne regarding body silhouette we removed it, we weren't asked to directly but we decided if its causing conflict we would remove it, there isn't much gain from it on most tracks anyway, we even put in another 1kg in ballast to compensate. On more than one occasion we have been in with the Clerk of Course regarding suspect cars and Nick Rice will confirm the many conversations I've had with him about this. We dont cheat, we have too much to lose and also, like you, I'm of the mind any success gained would be a hollow victory.
Edited by fiveoclockhero1 on Thursday 21st August 12:02
The two guys who race BMW's had special boxes made up specifically for the ballast and they were bolted to the passenger seat mounts.
In fact they ended up reducing the power rather than carrying the extra weight.
jeff666 said:
That's interesting regarding the ballast, I thought the rules were that it had to be positioned where the passenger would normally sit ?
The two guys who race BMW's had special boxes made up specifically for the ballast and they were bolted to the passenger seat mounts.
In fact they ended up reducing the power rather than carrying the extra weight.
The series regs say within the confines of the vehicle, they make no mention of whereabouts on the vehicle.The two guys who race BMW's had special boxes made up specifically for the ballast and they were bolted to the passenger seat mounts.
In fact they ended up reducing the power rather than carrying the extra weight.
djroadboy said:
To be fair, we could have gone around 3-4 seconds quicker last year if the car hadn't failed but I have to say I'm rather surprised/suspicious of the Porsche's pace for a Class B car.
Dan
Hi Dan,Dan
Mid 1.44s is doable by a legal class B car with a decent driver. My car is legal (142bhp at hubs, and 830kg with me in it) and I have done low 1.45s at Brands GP in the last few races there, and as you say, the GP layout is a power circuit so not best suited to Elises. So mid 1.44s is doable with a better driver.
And if you are coming out of the corners much faster, then it will seem as though you have much more power, and look suspicious.
I'm not saying anyone's car is legal or not. I'm just saying that the lap times achieved by the porker is probably attainable with a legal car.
Edited by StirlingMess on Friday 29th August 12:17
Edited by StirlingMess on Friday 29th August 12:17
Hi folks. Was thinking of maybe joining you next year. But it is looking as though if you are a good driver an can carry good corner speed other drivers may think you are cheating. Especially if you drive a porsche, and we do. And knowing Steve as i do. I dont think he would cheat. Bazz
BAZZ69 said:
Hi folks. Was thinking of maybe joining you next year. But it is looking as though if you are a good driver an can carry good corner speed other drivers may think you are cheating. Especially if you drive a porsche, and we do. And knowing Steve as i do. I dont think he would cheat. Bazz
I don't think you can blame any one for being suspicious, the guy who came second at Brands did mention that he could not stay with the Porsche on the straights, that's coming from a class A car with 25 BHP more and around the same weight.And before people mention the driver, Nigel has only been out twice this year and has had 2 second places so far, so reasonably handy behind the wheel.
Corner speed will of course make a lot of difference to lap times, but it was the straight line speed difference that was noted.
Would be interested to know the weight of the Porsche, and of course fuel weight and driver weight could also make a difference, as said before, unless they weigh and power test the top finishers in class their will always be a hint of suspicion that maybe some are bending the rules.
Steve is a quick driver. Period. Some people are just better than others, get over it.
Crickey, we race for fun and as a hobby to give us a release from the stresses of the day job but some seem to think it's ok to trash a person's character by accusing him if cheating. Defamation of character??
Oh but it's ok, because it's just a forum. Rubbish. If you are serious in your doubts, get the money together to pay for the
car to be stripped and checked for legality. If you are not, put up and shut up. It's not right that someone's reputation is shredded on a forum by insinuation.
Crickey, we race for fun and as a hobby to give us a release from the stresses of the day job but some seem to think it's ok to trash a person's character by accusing him if cheating. Defamation of character??
Oh but it's ok, because it's just a forum. Rubbish. If you are serious in your doubts, get the money together to pay for the
car to be stripped and checked for legality. If you are not, put up and shut up. It's not right that someone's reputation is shredded on a forum by insinuation.
andy97 said:
Steve is a quick driver. Period. Some people are just better than others, get over it.
Crickey, we race for fun and as a hobby to give us a release from the stresses of the day job but some seem to think it's ok to trash a person's character by accusing him if cheating. Defamation of character??
Oh but it's ok, because it's just a forum. Rubbish. If you are serious in your doubts, get the money together to pay for the
car to be stripped and checked for legality. If you are not, put up and shut up. It's not right that someone's reputation is shredded on a forum by insinuation.
Toys out the pram moment ? I simply replied to a guys comment but you seem to have your panties in a twist Andy.Crickey, we race for fun and as a hobby to give us a release from the stresses of the day job but some seem to think it's ok to trash a person's character by accusing him if cheating. Defamation of character??
Oh but it's ok, because it's just a forum. Rubbish. If you are serious in your doubts, get the money together to pay for the
car to be stripped and checked for legality. If you are not, put up and shut up. It's not right that someone's reputation is shredded on a forum by insinuation.
Two cars in a race series, one is running 200 BHP per ton, the other 175 BHP per ton, if you bothered to read my post I wasn't talking about better drivers, I was talking about straight line speed.
And I did not accuse anyone of cheating, I said "You can't blame people for being suspicious " considering it has been mentioned that some cars have been found to be underweight.
Gassing Station | UK Club Motorsport | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff