Revising A Builder Invoice - Am I being Unreasonable

Revising A Builder Invoice - Am I being Unreasonable

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Discussion

Four Litre

2,013 posts

191 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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I would say, tell him what it has theoretically cost you and Im sure you will have to agree a compromise.

Helping out for a couple of hours would be ok in my book (Only if I wasnt paying top builder rates and getting a bargain) but 20 hours makes you one of the team!!

In retrospect you should of called up the boss and said its not working. Seems that your builders were just unskilled labour.

fido

16,752 posts

254 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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AyBee said:
If the owner has said he'd compensate you, I'd tell him how much time you spent overseeing his workfarce and see what happens (knowing what the revised figure would be if you charged your full hourly rate).
That - if you're happy with the final result, but not happy about you unpaid input.

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

231 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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IN51GHT said:
CedGTV said:
Just to indulge me, the basic 'things' that he should of known, what were they ?

And the trigonometry, would be what ?
Basic things.....

Replacing structural M8 bolts at the ends of alumnium extrusions with self tapers into the plastic.

The stickers on the glass that say "this side out" being on the inside.

Trigonometry was required to work out the height of the wall plate as they fitted it 3" too low, despite me telling them the height as they could not work it out, they still fitted it too low, requiring it to be refitted, under my supervision.

Despite numerous calls to the owner to come to site, he avoided coming.
Id be inclined to do the same as you. If he refused to come to site and agreed to compensate you then I don't see the problem.
Like all these things being reasonable is the answer.
24 hours sounds a bit of a stretch unless you were literally building it with them.
If he agreed to compensate you, has he actually queried your deduction?

IN51GHT

Original Poster:

8,777 posts

209 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
quotequote all
blindswelledrat said:
24 hours sounds a bit of a stretch unless you were literally building it with them.
If he agreed to compensate you, has he actually queried your deduction?
I was building it with them!!!!

He has just queried my hourly rate asking "can we charge that".

I think he should be grateful that I spotted the use of self tappers on a load bearing joint as the results of the roof coming in on somebody would have been far more expensive for him!!!!


Edited by IN51GHT on Tuesday 21st January 11:53

CedGTV

2,538 posts

253 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
quotequote all
I would have stopped them and sent them away from site and had the top man down to explain as to why he had chancers working for him.

I wouldn't of let them finish it, and thought about seeking a replacement company to take over the build either with or without the kit first supplied.

Sounds a little like the joiners we have here on site, subbed in by the Joinery shop and shipped out by me after 3 hours on site. Complete chancers that would have ruined the joinery that had already been delivered.

mjb1

2,552 posts

158 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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IN51GHT said:
I was building it with them!!!!

He has just queried my hourly rate asking "can we charge that".

I think he should be grateful that I spotted the use of self tappers on a load bearing joint as the results of the roof coming in on somebody would have been far more expensive for him!!!!


Edited by IN51GHT on Tuesday 21st January 11:53
When you first posted, my thought was that it depends somewhat on your hourly rate. I think it's more reasonable to charge foreman/supervisor rates for the actual job, rather than your profession's hourly rate. You chose to get involved to such an extent. If you didn't want to, and you didn't agree £200 per hour (or whatever you pro rate is) with the builder, then you should have sent them away at the first signs of incompetence.

blindswelledrat

25,257 posts

231 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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mjb1 said:
When you first posted, my thought was that it depends somewhat on your hourly rate. I think it's more reasonable to charge foreman/supervisor rates for the actual job, rather than your profession's hourly rate. You chose to get involved to such an extent. If you didn't want to, and you didn't agree £200 per hour (or whatever you pro rate is) with the builder, then you should have sent them away at the first signs of incompetence.
I think I agree with that.
If your rate is £50+ tehn when he agreed to compensate you, it is fair to assume that you knew he would take umbrage to that at final bill stage. What you should have done was actually quote him the rate at the time.
That said, the other part of me is thinking that he is such a fking massive cowboy he deserves to reap what he sows.

Yes, in fact scratch my comments- fk him. If you run a company like that then you need to learn what the results are.

matchmaker

8,463 posts

199 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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CedGTV said:
Just to indulge me, the basic 'things' that he should of known, what were they ?

And the trigonometry, would be what ?
Basic speeling & grammer? biggrin

CedGTV

2,538 posts

253 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
quotequote all
matchmaker said:
CedGTV said:
Just to indulge me, the basic 'things' that he should of known, what were they ?

And the trigonometry, would be what ?
Basic speeling & grammer? biggrin
Aggghhhhhhhh *have

Head is now hung in shame.

Trudges off rather than a flounce.

KFC

3,687 posts

129 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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I agree with the others - billing him at your own rate for something completely unrelated like web design or IT consulting or whatever is completely unrealistic and unreasonable. I don't see how you could bill him at anything other than a building supervisor hourly rate. If you didn't want to do that you should have stopped the job and spoken to the boss about what you were going to do next.

Davel

8,982 posts

257 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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Talk to them.

Remind them that they offered to compensate you for your time and agree a discount or credit.

If you haven't paid yet, tell them that you'll sit on the invoice pending an agreement.

Back it up in writing.

darren f

982 posts

212 months

Tuesday 21st January 2014
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He'd expect to pay c.£20/hr for a supervisor / agent on site, you should be looking to charge this, assuming he has agreed to the 'contra charge'. If you were intending to charge anything in excess of normal industry rates you should have made this clear at the time of the initial discussion.

IN51GHT

Original Poster:

8,777 posts

209 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
OK, this goes on some more.

The builder reduced the invoice by the amount I requested called it "customer reduction", we are now 100% paid up (have been for quite some time).

Monday an e-mail arrives for the amount they knocked off the invoice, claiming they never agreed to it & it was a "temporary reduction" they intended to "chase us for later" as it was unilaterally applied by the client.

Basically I've told him to fk off, but in more polite terms, he has sent on average 18 emails days chasing me, I simply reply "All communication to be directed to me via you solicitor, I will not enter negotiation with you as there is no balance payable"

Can he rightly claim the money retrospectively? I'm assuming not.

SpeckledJim

31,608 posts

252 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
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You have an invoice from him that includes a line describing the deduction?

Game, Set, Match, surely?

spikeyhead

17,224 posts

196 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
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IN51GHT said:
OK, this goes on some more.

The builder reduced the invoice by the amount I requested called it "customer reduction", we are now 100% paid up (have been for quite some time).

Monday an e-mail arrives for the amount they knocked off the invoice, claiming they never agreed to it & it was a "temporary reduction" they intended to "chase us for later" as it was unilaterally applied by the client.

Basically I've told him to fk off, but in more polite terms, he has sent on average 18 emails days chasing me, I simply reply "All communication to be directed to me via you solicitor, I will not enter negotiation with you as there is no balance payable"

Can he rightly claim the money retrospectively? I'm assuming not.
It's Christmas, he's short of money and is shooting at any possible target. Tell him to do one.

mikefacel

610 posts

187 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
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Tell him that unless he ceases you will charge him for the time taken responding to his emails/letters at your standard rate. Has worked for me several times.

Muzzer79

9,806 posts

186 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
spikeyhead said:
IN51GHT said:
OK, this goes on some more.

The builder reduced the invoice by the amount I requested called it "customer reduction", we are now 100% paid up (have been for quite some time).

Monday an e-mail arrives for the amount they knocked off the invoice, claiming they never agreed to it & it was a "temporary reduction" they intended to "chase us for later" as it was unilaterally applied by the client.

Basically I've told him to fk off, but in more polite terms, he has sent on average 18 emails days chasing me, I simply reply "All communication to be directed to me via you solicitor, I will not enter negotiation with you as there is no balance payable"

Can he rightly claim the money retrospectively? I'm assuming not.
It's Christmas, he's short of money and is shooting at any possible target. Tell him to do one.
This, providing you have an appropriately worded receipt/invoice

Buster73

5,042 posts

152 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
IN51GHT said:
The owner actually said at the time that he'll compensate for any time lost.

They admitted that without the help they would have struggled. e.g. they tried to replace M8 bolts with self tappers as a starter.
Big self tappers needed there mind.

sone

4,585 posts

237 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
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I'm guessing he'll present his original quote to small claims and say you didn't settle in full. I guess that he's been advised by someone that he's entitled to settlement and he's nothing to lose.
Unless there's written agreement between you and a meeting of minds you'll end up paying. If the job was accepted by yourself I'm guessing that's all the proof he'll need.
It ain't fair but that's the way the cookie crumbles, the time lapse is of little relevance.
In my opinion of course.

Leptons

5,113 posts

175 months

Thursday 18th December 2014
quotequote all
Let's have it then, how much do you 'owe' him?