Alfa 4C - the reality?????

[heebeegeetee]

errek72 said:

No real idea. The leitmotiv seems to be that somehow Italians have no idea what they are doing, and it takes a journalist (not trained or accridited in chassis dynamics, zero competition wins) to point out how wrong the manufacturer is. Worth noting that a lot of negative comments do not come from tests on British roads. The autocar one was on a track, the EVO slaughtering exercise was in France, the auto express one also on a track.

Possibly it sells more copies to be negative than positive?

So when a journalist drives a car that does things he doe not like, and does things that possibly the other cars on a group test either don't do or do better - what do you think the journalist should say?

[errek72]

I think the journalist should say exactly that. Not by throwing the toys out of the pram with a 'oh those inferior Italians' smirk but by giving the reader an underbuilt reason, the result of a journalistic enquiry, by fact and knowledge.

To give an example, this: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Community/Car-Magazin...

I have low hopes of ever seing that level from a UK journo again, but not saying the total opposite from one article to the other would be a start.

[Camoradi]

The way things are going, with the scribblers all out to slag off the Alfa 4C, there might just be a chance of the depreciation and lack of demand for them enabling me to get my hands on one in a few years time. Just maybe.....

It will be interesting to see what good used examples are fetching in 3 years time. I'd give quite a lot to own one, with all their imperfections

[jpf]

Curious to see how things go at the New York Auto Show for the 4c's debut.

[Dblue]

Camoradi said:

The way things are going, with the scribblers all out to slag off the Alfa 4C, there might just be a chance of the depreciation and lack of demand for them enabling me to get my hands on one in a few years time. Just maybe.....

It will be interesting to see what good used examples are fetching in 3 years time. I'd give quite a lot to own one, with all their imperfections

But how "good" a car is doesn't have as large an influence on its residual values as you might hope. The Lotus Evora sheds loads of value whilst remaining rather brilliant
Lots of fast Audis are a long way from being the best drivers cars you can get hold of whilst commanding very impressive residual values.

I do not understand the sensitvity of some posters on here to EVOs COTY test. It was driven back to back with all the best drivers cars of the year and I didn't compare well. There are lots of other cars from manufacturers like Aston and Lamborghini that have also had disappointing reports on the back of an EVO Coty test.
I remember the DBS especially getting a slating.

[errek72]

Dblue said:

I do not understand the sensitvity of some posters on here to EVOs COTY test. It was driven back to back with all the best drivers cars of the year and I didn't compare well.

And a month before that it was driven and indicated to evoke a Zonda and 458 for the same aspects the comparison video tells is we should -and I qoute- 'hate'. So 5 pounds for one issue and 5 for the other. That is ten pounds down the drain since together they add up to zero information.

This, while the majority of punters just look at the free vid and remember 'crap car'. Good luck with those magazine sales I'd say, I've had it with EVO and will spend the money on extra beer

[Dblue]

errek72 said:

Dblue said:

I do not understand the sensitvity of some posters on here to EVOs COTY test. It was driven back to back with all the best drivers cars of the year and I didn't compare well.

And a month before that it was driven and indicated to evoke a Zonda and 458 for the same aspects the comparison video tells is we should -and I qoute- 'hate'. So 5 pounds for one issue and 5 for the other. That is ten pounds down the drain since together they add up to zero information.

This, while the majority of punters just look at the free vid and remember 'crap car'. Good luck with those magazine sales I'd say, I've had it with EVO and will spend the money on extra beer

The first piece was NOT anything like as severe test for the 4C,It was a launch drive.

No one really thinks the 4C is a real rival or even remotely like a 458 or a Zonda. (Both of which are universally lauded by the UK press despite being Italian )

The second was way way more of an examination. You are surely familiar with ECOTY, its got years and years of massive credibility with several pretty brave verdicts over the years.

The car didn't do great back to back against a talented bunch of opponents , its not quite the game changer we all hoped it would be.

But its still a breath of fresh air, looks superb and shows a commitment to the right principles

[cheddar]

Dblue said:

The first piece was NOT anything like as severe test for the 4C,It was a launch drive.

No one really thinks the 4C is a real rival or even remotely like a 458 or a Zonda. (Both of which are universally lauded by the UK press despite being Italian )

The second was way way more of an examination. You are surely familiar with ECOTY, its got years and years of massive credibility with several pretty brave verdicts over the years.

The car didn't do great back to back against a talented bunch of opponents , its not quite the game changer we all hoped it would be.

But its still a breath of fresh air, looks superb and shows a commitment to the right principles

Well said.

[errek72]

Dblue said:

You are surely familiar with ECOTY, its got years and years of massive credibility with several pretty brave verdicts over the years.

I would not call constantly picking a 911 as winner brave. More 'predictable'.

So, driven a 4C yet? Agree with meaden that (quote from twitter) 'everything is wrong with it'?

Edited by errek72 on Wednesday 23 April 06:24

[heebeegeetee]

errek72 said:

I would not call constantly picking a 911 as winner brave. More 'predictable'.

So, driven a 4C yet? Agree with meaden that (quote from twitter) 'everything is wrong with it'?

Edited by errek72 on Wednesday 23 April 06:24

To pick the same winner year after year would attract a lot of criticism and hostility, so yes, I'd also say it's a brave move. I mean, it definitely can't help the mag when every such comparison is a Porsche-fest.

But what do they do? The drivers either state the case as they see it from their experience, or they lie in the hunt for magazine sales.

[Dblue]

heebeegeetee said:

errek72 said:

I would not call constantly picking a 911 as winner brave. More 'predictable'.

So, driven a 4C yet? Agree with meaden that (quote from twitter) 'everything is wrong with it'?

Edited by errek72 on Wednesday 23 April 06:24

To pick the same winner year after year would attract a lot of criticism and hostility, so yes, I'd also say it's a brave move. I mean, it definitely can't help the mag when every such comparison is a Porsche-fest.

But what do they do? The drivers either state the case as they see it from their experience, or they lie in the hunt for magazine sales.

+1 , Exactly this.

I would say there's a pretty strong correlation between every magazine and web site about Porsche and their cars.

[Dblue]

errek72 said:

Dblue said:

I do not understand the sensitvity of some posters on here to EVOs COTY test. It was driven back to back with all the best drivers cars of the year and I didn't compare well.

And a month before that it was driven and indicated to evoke a Zonda and 458 for the same aspects the comparison video tells is we should -and I qoute- 'hate'. So 5 pounds for one issue and 5 for the other. That is ten pounds down the drain since together they add up to zero information.

This, while the majority of punters just look at the free vid and remember 'crap car'. Good luck with those magazine sales I'd say, I've had it with EVO and will spend the money on extra beer

OK, AGAIN, the first drive was the launch drive and if you ever take more than token notice of opinions written on the back of a Manufacturers jolly you are a simpleton. There have been lots and lots of euphoric pieces over the years based on those first drives and lots and lots of revisions of those opinions on the roads of the UK.

Are you seriously saying you think its reasonable to compare the 4C to a 458 or a Pagani in any meaningful way? Surely not.


When the car was driven, away from that environment, in a meaningful comparison test against the best cars of the year its weaknesses were exposed.

How do you not get that?

No, I've not driven the 4C I admit. The fact that there are no Alfa Dealers with a suitable car anywhere near where I live means that would require a huge effort from me to arrange and I wouldn't go to all that trouble unless the impressions of the journalists I know and trust were more positive.

The fact is that Richard Meaden and Jethro Bovingdon et al have the chance to drive ALL of the likely contenders in course of their job (Lucky gits ! )and I don't. Nor do you. I therefore listen their opinions.

[stephen300o]

Handling can be tweaked, the underlying principles are great, and a pretty car.

Certainly much better than the 8c mistake.

[errek72]

heebeegeetee said:

To pick the same winner year after year would attract a lot of criticism and hostility, so yes, I'd also say it's a brave move. I mean, it definitely can't help the mag when every such comparison is a Porsche-fest.

But what do they do? The drivers either state the case as they see it from their experience, or they lie in the hunt for magazine sales.

Although I agree with your conclusion, the only hostility I have seen so far is that against anyone daring to pop the balloon of said hacks being driving Gods radiating truth. It seems people want to believe and anything that would even suggest the stories -because in the end that is what they are- are not true, must be attacked. Even if this happens -and this is where it gets funny- by actual owners who if nothing else have spent a longer time in and with the car.

[errek72]

Dblue said:

errek72 said:

Dblue said:

I do not understand the sensitvity of some posters on here to EVOs COTY test. It was driven back to back with all the best drivers cars of the year and I didn't compare well.

And a month before that it was driven and indicated to evoke a Zonda and 458 for the same aspects the comparison video tells is we should -and I qoute- 'hate'. So 5 pounds for one issue and 5 for the other. That is ten pounds down the drain since together they add up to zero information.

This, while the majority of punters just look at the free vid and remember 'crap car'. Good luck with those magazine sales I'd say, I've had it with EVO and will spend the money on extra beer

OK, AGAIN, the first drive was the launch drive and if you ever take more than token notice of opinions written on the back of a Manufacturers jolly you are a simpleton. There have been lots and lots of euphoric pieces over the years based on those first drives and lots and lots of revisions of those opinions on the roads of the UK.

Are you seriously saying you think its reasonable to compare the 4C to a 458 or a Pagani in any meaningful way? Surely not.


When the car was driven, away from that environment, in a meaningful comparison test against the best cars of the year its weaknesses were exposed.

How do you not get that?

No, I've not driven the 4C I admit. The fact that there are no Alfa Dealers with a suitable car anywhere near where I live means that would require a huge effort from me to arrange and I wouldn't go to all that trouble unless the impressions of the journalists I know and trust were more positive.

The fact is that Richard Meaden and Jethro Bovingdon et al have the chance to drive ALL of the likely contenders in course of their job (Lucky gits ! )and I don't. Nor do you. I therefore listen their opinions.

I'm afraid a big part of what you read is actually in your head and not in my post. I have never said anything about a 4C being like a Zonda or 458. I do not come up with nonsense like that. That is the sole acheivement of the journalists you seem to appreciate so much, and that is what I pointed out. Which makes this a bit ironic because if you had actually spend your money on buying the mags you would have realised this. So between the two of us, you are a rabid defender of Bovindoing and co, while I payed them to be able to do what they do so badly. Life eh?

[Dblue]

errek72 said:

Dblue said:

errek72 said:

Dblue said:

I do not understand the sensitvity of some posters on here to EVOs COTY test. It was driven back to back with all the best drivers cars of the year and I didn't compare well.

And a month before that it was driven and indicated to evoke a Zonda and 458 for the same aspects the comparison video tells is we should -and I qoute- 'hate'. So 5 pounds for one issue and 5 for the other. That is ten pounds down the drain since together they add up to zero information.

This, while the majority of punters just look at the free vid and remember 'crap car'. Good luck with those magazine sales I'd say, I've had it with EVO and will spend the money on extra beer

OK, AGAIN, the first drive was the launch drive and if you ever take more than token notice of opinions written on the back of a Manufacturers jolly you are a simpleton. There have been lots and lots of euphoric pieces over the years based on those first drives and lots and lots of revisions of those opinions on the roads of the UK.

Are you seriously saying you think its reasonable to compare the 4C to a 458 or a Pagani in any meaningful way? Surely not.


When the car was driven, away from that environment, in a meaningful comparison test against the best cars of the year its weaknesses were exposed.

How do you not get that?

No, I've not driven the 4C I admit. The fact that there are no Alfa Dealers with a suitable car anywhere near where I live means that would require a huge effort from me to arrange and I wouldn't go to all that trouble unless the impressions of the journalists I know and trust were more positive.

The fact is that Richard Meaden and Jethro Bovingdon et al have the chance to drive ALL of the likely contenders in course of their job (Lucky gits ! )and I don't. Nor do you. I therefore listen their opinions.

I'm afraid a big part of what you read is actually in your head and not in my post. I have never said anything about a 4C being like a Zonda or 458. I do not come up with nonsense like that. That is the sole acheivement of the journalists you seem to appreciate so much, and that is what I pointed out. Which makes this a bit ironic because if you had actually spend your money on buying the mags you would have realised this. So between the two of us, you are a rabid defender of Bovindoing and co, while I payed them to be able to do what they do so badly. Life eh?

I think in all honesty Errek that the only rabid defending I've seen on this thread is from the Alfisti like yourself.

I personally despise the obsession with one marque over and above reason that I see on here sometimes, like its a football forum. You are upset that EVO in particular (Although I've seen very similar opinions from CAR, Autocar and Drive as well ) is not showering the 4C with undiluted praise which you think it deserves.

You will forgive me if I cast some doubt upon your impartiality in this matter based on your car owning preferences and history.

But you or I are not as lucky as to be able to form an informed opinion of the cars relative to each other as the journalists you are insulting. Because we didn't have the chance to drive it back to back on the same day across the same roads. I'll take the majority opinion (There were 10 drivers involved in ECOTY I think ) of those that were able to, over an owner who can claim lots of Kms in one car but not any of the others besides a perfunctory test drive perhaps

What I object to is you inference that they are anti-italian or commercially biased as I just don't see that at all in many years of the magazines output.

Alfa is a glorious thing, I hope they succeed with the car and that they go on to make more interesting and innovative new cars in the future.

[errek72]

Dblue said:

You will forgive me if I cast some doubt upon your impartiality in this matter based on your car owning preferences and history.

I apologise profusely for daring to object to journos contradicting themselves on a monthly basis, AND expressing being fond of Alfas. I will try live with the shame.

So you would chose a mini over an Exige S? Really?

Dblue said:

What I object to is you inference that they are anti-italian or commercially biased as I just don't see that at all in many years of the magazines output.

Right. Count the pages on that ecoty issue filled by ads and let me know please.

Dblue said:

Alfa is a glorious thing, I hope they succeed with the car and that they go on to make more interesting and innovative new cars in the future.

I hope they do not deliver a single car to UK out of spite. We all have our hopes. Mine seems pretty realistic at the moment.

[DeltonaS]

stephen300o said:

Handling can be tweaked, the underlying principles are great, and a pretty car.

Certainly much better than the 8c mistake.

8c mistake ??

It may not be the fastest or best handling car but it's one of the most beautifull cars ever made, with a great engine, a cf body, a good gearbox and it's relatively light (certainly in comprison with anything from Aston Martin f.e.).

I hope Alfa will make some more mistakes like the 8c in the future.

[errek72]

DeltonaS said:

8c mistake ??

It may not be the fastest or best handling car but it's one of the most beautifull cars ever made, with a great engine, a cf body, a good gearbox and it's relatively light (certainly in comprison with anything from Aston Martin f.e.).

I hope Alfa will make some more mistakes like the 8c in the future.

And another victim of the great British love affair with their car journo's. Clarkson said the 8C drives pants so in Britain it is now universally seen as 'a mistake'. No doubt lesser Gods echhoed him in reviews. Clarkson drives a technically identical 8C rebodied by Touring and proclaims it a miracle of roadholding. Contradicting much?

[Alfahorn]

errek72 - I don't know why you bother to continue to defend Alfa on here. I've given up, let people believe what they want to believe. I've no doubt you'll be very happy with the car, which must be imminent now?

If people would rather allow their opinions to be formed by journalists than through their own experiences that's up to them.