War with Russia

Author
Discussion

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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News today reporting that Ukraine is reducing its reliance and vulnerability to Russian gas and oil supplies by around 45%. NJSC Naftogaz Ukrainy has a contract with the Norwegian company, Statoil, to supply gas at a price much lower than the Russian price that commenced on 1st October 2014.

A poke in the eye for Russia, can't see it helping their profitability much.

Whether Putin has realized it or not his actions in the east of Ukraine are driving the Ukrainian people into to the arms of the west and NATO faster than he could ever have imagined.

Octoposse

2,152 posts

184 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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skyrover said:
NJSC Naftogaz Ukrainy has a contract with the Norwegian company, Statoil, to supply gas at a price much lower than the Russian price that commenced on 1st October 2014.
And they're going to pay for it with . . . . ? (Actually I assume the answer is our money). And is this Norwegain gas, or traded Russian gas - with EU and IMF money thus merely guaranteeing payments to Moscow?

skyrover said:
Whether Putin has realized it or not his actions in the east of Ukraine are driving the Ukrainian people into to the arms of the west and NATO faster than he could ever have imagined.
Up to a point, yes - at least that majority of the people of Ukraine who don't perceive the regime in Kiev as fascist. That end result is presumably the method behind the West's madness is not encouraging a political settlement back in March.

hidetheelephants

23,772 posts

192 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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It's difficult to take your position seriously when friend Putin continues to send more and more hardware across the border while simultaneously denying it.

Yazar

1,476 posts

119 months

Saturday 22nd November 2014
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Britain is currently playing war games in Poland with Tanks in Britain’s most easterly tank manoeuvres in Europe for nearly a decade. Army chiefs want to send more. rolleyes


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/112...

Stevanos

700 posts

136 months

Friday 28th November 2014
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Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Friday 28th November 2014
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Yazar said:
Britain is currently playing war games in Poland with Tanks in Britain’s most easterly tank manoeuvres in Europe for nearly a decade. Army chiefs want to send more. rolleyes


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/112...
Why the rolleyes? Poland is in NATO, Russia has been sending aggressive patrols near and inside NATO airspace, sending mini-subs into Swedish waters, Russian troops abducted an Estonian soldier from inside Estonia (also a NATO member) I'd have thought a small exercise would be the least NATO should be doing. Or do you believe that expansionist Kleptocrats should be allowed to do what they want?

Jimbeaux

33,791 posts

230 months

Friday 28th November 2014
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Yazar said:
Britain is currently playing war games in Poland with Tanks in Britain’s most easterly tank manoeuvres in Europe for nearly a decade. Army chiefs want to send more. rolleyes


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/112...
Why not?

Octoposse

2,152 posts

184 months

Friday 28th November 2014
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Bluebarge said:
Russia has been sending aggressive patrols near and inside NATO airspace
No, not inside. And what is an 'aggressive' patrol, as opposed to, say, NATO warships bobbing about in the Black Sea? Or NATO aircraft operating over the Baltic?

Bluebarge said:
sending mini-subs into Swedish waters
Evidence? . . . . Thought not!

Bluebarge said:
Russian troops abducted an Estonian soldier
Intelligence agent, and in disputed circumstances.

Bluebarge said:
Or do you believe that expansionist Kleptocrats should be allowed to do what they want?
Well, Crimea is now part of Russia, and will be until about the time that the US gives up Texas (or China Tibet). And, it must be added, Crimea is now part of Russia in line with the wishes of the majority of its citizens (and self determination of peoples is right near the top of the UN Charter . . That's the reality we need to engage with. A peaceful settlement in the East was on the table back in March, with Russia desparate to get a deal and get back to business-as-usual. War in the East was the second worst possible outcome for Moscow, the only worse one being triumphant Kiev paramilitaries on the border, hundreds of thousands of refugees, and dissent among the Russian people that Putin hadn't helped '. . . those poor people chased from their lands by fascists . . .'.

Yet on issue after issue, 'we' seek to ramp up tensions with Putin, even inventing cause for dispute, as fundamentally we have no strategic conflict of interests with Russia whatsoever. What's the big picture - regime change in Moscow?



AreOut

3,658 posts

160 months

Saturday 29th November 2014
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I think west will play the waiting game, Putin won't live for more than a decade or two and whoever comes after him Russia will sink with huge probability.

That's how it goes with authocratic countries, even if there is someone who will raise the standard and bring good to the country there is a huge chance whoever comes after him will fck ti all up.

hidetheelephants

23,772 posts

192 months

Saturday 29th November 2014
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I suspect there's a good chance he'll kark it soon under the knife of some butcher, getting pectoral implants or something, if his penchant for facelifts is anything to go by. hehe

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Saturday 29th November 2014
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Russia's nationalist poster boy getting ideas above his station?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/26/kim-stre...

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Sunday 30th November 2014
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Octoposse said:
'we' seek to ramp up tensions with Putin, even inventing cause for dispute, as fundamentally we have no strategic conflict of interests with Russia whatsoever. What's the big picture - regime change in Moscow?
The big picture is the USA is sinking into a debt fuelled deflationary period, and the powers that be don't want to lose their control and wealth, so wars work to distract the people and act as an excuse for their problems.

Russia are not exactly in a rosy position but they're apparently willing to pump oil at $60 a barrel, they're probably fairly happy to live fairly frugal lives unlike the 'Black Friday' materialistic masses of the USA, and they have fairly low national debt.


The conflict of interests the USA have with Russia, is the same as they have with China and every other non-western aligned economy that won't partake in their sham economic prosperity (printing money willy nilly and giving it away in return for foreign products/services/commodities etc)



I just hope the USA don't go full-retard and start a war but it wouldn't surprise me. From my perspective the USA are just capitalist expansionist nutters, and if the economic expansionism fails they go in with their guns and tanks... so far that has worked.
But with Russia. Hmmmmm...

Dave

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Monday 1st December 2014
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Oil below $65.00 a barrel, the first time since 2009.

Great news for Pukin.

I suggested should oil fall below $60.00 he will start seeking replacement underware.

Phil

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Monday 1st December 2014
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Octoposse said:
Bluebarge said:
Russia has been sending aggressive patrols near and inside NATO airspace
No, not inside. And what is an 'aggressive' patrol, as opposed to, say, NATO warships bobbing about in the Black Sea? Or NATO aircraft operating over the Baltic?

Bluebarge said:
sending mini-subs into Swedish waters
Evidence? . . . . Thought not!

Bluebarge said:
Russian troops abducted an Estonian soldier
Intelligence agent, and in disputed circumstances.

Bluebarge said:
Or do you believe that expansionist Kleptocrats should be allowed to do what they want?
Well, Crimea is now part of Russia, and will be until about the time that the US gives up Texas (or China Tibet). And, it must be added, Crimea is now part of Russia in line with the wishes of the majority of its citizens (and self determination of peoples is right near the top of the UN Charter . . That's the reality we need to engage with. A peaceful settlement in the East was on the table back in March, with Russia desparate to get a deal and get back to business-as-usual. War in the East was the second worst possible outcome for Moscow, the only worse one being triumphant Kiev paramilitaries on the border, hundreds of thousands of refugees, and dissent among the Russian people that Putin hadn't helped '. . . those poor people chased from their lands by fascists . . .'.

Yet on issue after issue, 'we' seek to ramp up tensions with Putin, even inventing cause for dispute, as fundamentally we have no strategic conflict of interests with Russia whatsoever. What's the big picture - regime change in Moscow?
http://news.yahoo.com/surge-russian-aircraft-seen-over-baltic-sea-170649616.html

So, my little Russian friend - presumably that is all propaganda?

Russian mini-sub? - the Swedes are pretty clear where it came from - you know those agressive war-mongering, NATO members the Swedes.

Self-determination? rofl you could carve up any map anywhere in the world by identifying one ethnic minority and supporting it with armed might against its legitimate govt. - that includes most of Russia BTW so be careful of the "precedent" you are setting. And news reports from Crimea indicate that it is being properly "Russified" - rigged elections, confiscation of private property and enterprises, suppression of human rights - you must be so proud.

Ah well - if it's not the oil price that does for you, it will be your failure to diversify your economy (because you have no rule of law that would make investment worthwhile) and your lack of worthwhile allies now that Putin's imperial agenda is so clear. Enjoy your isolation.

Mr Whippy

28,944 posts

240 months

Monday 1st December 2014
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Bluebarge said:
Self-determination? rofl you could carve up any map anywhere in the world by identifying one ethnic minority and supporting it with armed might against its legitimate govt. - that includes most of Russia BTW so be careful of the "precedent" you are setting. And news reports from Crimea indicate that it is being properly "Russified" - rigged elections, confiscation of private property and enterprises, suppression of human rights - you must be so proud.

Ah well - if it's not the oil price that does for you, it will be your failure to diversify your economy (because you have no rule of law that would make investment worthwhile) and your lack of worthwhile allies now that Putin's imperial agenda is so clear. Enjoy your isolation.
Wasn't it a Western choreographed coup to bring the area to the West that caused the instability and then Russian involvement in the first place?

It seems that if the West had left it alone they'd have had self determination. Instead the West forced themselves upon the region... so how was that providing self-determination for the people of the region?

So it was either going to be Europe/Westernised, or "Russified"... which is better when both sides are willing to take away the true democratic right of self-determination is irrelevant.


And lets not pretend the West's economics and policies are great news either. According to many the USA has slipped into being more reflective of an oligarchy than a democracy.


Neither side come out smelling of roses. Personally I'm scared of either 'super power'... the motives behind both the West and Russia are driven by greed and power of a few. Screw the actual people they're apparently representing/serving.

Dave

Bluebarge

4,519 posts

177 months

Monday 1st December 2014
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Mr Whippy said:
Wasn't it a Western choreographed coup to bring the area to the West that caused the instability and then Russian involvement in the first place?

It seems that if the West had left it alone they'd have had self determination. Instead the West forced themselves upon the region... so how was that providing self-determination for the people of the region?

So it was either going to be Europe/Westernised, or "Russified"... which is better when both sides are willing to take away the true democratic right of self-determination is irrelevant.


And lets not pretend the West's economics and policies are great news either. According to many the USA has slipped into being more reflective of an oligarchy than a democracy.


Neither side come out smelling of roses. Personally I'm scared of either 'super power'... the motives behind both the West and Russia are driven by greed and power of a few. Screw the actual people they're apparently representing/serving.

Dave
WTF are you on about?

Western-choreographed coup? Any evidence for that apart from Russia Today?

Who would have had self-determination? The Ukrainians (whose borders were imposed upon them by a previous generation of Russians) already had it - now that right is being removed from the eastern provinces of Ukraine by the Russian army.

West "forced itself upon the region"??? - we are talking about a trade agreement with the EU - the EU FFS - the organisation that takes bloody months to agree on anything because it needs the agreement of its 27 members. Just a trade agreement.

USA an oligarchy??? - it's a democracy, one of the World's oldest - it may not be perfect, nowhere is, but do you seriously think the rights, freedoms and opportunities available to a Russian are the same as those on offer to a US citizen??? Have you noticed who is currently US president? Son of a Kenyan immigrant? A public rights lawyer - which branch of the Oligarchy do you think he belongs to?

You really need to lay off the vodka before lunch Tovarich - even by RT standards, you sound seriously deluded.

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Monday 1st December 2014
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Bluebarge said:
WTF are you on about?

Western-choreographed coup? Any evidence for that apart from Russia Today?

Who would have had self-determination? The Ukrainians (whose borders were imposed upon them by a previous generation of Russians) already had it - now that right is being removed from the eastern provinces of Ukraine by the Russian army.

West "forced itself upon the region"??? - we are talking about a trade agreement with the EU - the EU FFS - the organisation that takes bloody months to agree on anything because it needs the agreement of its 27 members. Just a trade agreement.

USA an oligarchy??? - it's a democracy, one of the World's oldest - it may not be perfect, nowhere is, but do you seriously think the rights, freedoms and opportunities available to a Russian are the same as those on offer to a US citizen??? Have you noticed who is currently US president? Son of a Kenyan immigrant? A public rights lawyer - which branch of the Oligarchy do you think he belongs to?

You really need to lay off the vodka before lunch Tovarich - even by RT standards, you sound seriously deluded.
You do known "Team America" was not a documentary ?

IroningMan

10,154 posts

245 months

Monday 1st December 2014
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QuantumTokoloshi said:
You do known "Team America" was not a documentary ?
Those loveable cuddly Ruskies, eh? Always being hassled by the West when all they really want to do is get on with minding their own business and stamping the fk out of Eastern Europe.

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Monday 1st December 2014
quotequote all
IroningMan said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
You do known "Team America" was not a documentary ?
Those loveable cuddly Ruskies, eh? Always being hassled by the West when all they really want to do is get on with minding their own business and stamping the fk out of Eastern Europe.
Those magnanimous EU officials, promising democracy, as long as the plebiscite supports their candidate but end up delivering right wing fascists and economic ruin.

It seem self determination and succession is only available when they say so.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 1st December 14:41