War with Russia

[Bluebarge]

AreOut said:

Bluebarge said:

So we have to do whatever you say or you will incinerate the planet?

Great strategy.

Or would be if there weren't at least 4 other powers with ICBMs.

There is MAD and mad, and I don't think Putin is mad. If he were, he wouldn't stay leader of Russia. So, put it away.

no but you should stop instigating color revolutions and arming nations close to their borders, I'm quite sure USA would react if Russia started revolution in Mexico or Canada to bring their people to rule the country

Where is your evidence that the US or EU instigated the revolution in Ukraine?

Have you forgotten that there have since been elections in Ukraine since that revolution (except in those parts of Ukraine occupied by Russian separatists and Russian troops)? Ukraine now has a govt. chosen by its people, not by some shadowy figures you seem to believe in.

Who is arming Ukraine? The US may now vote to provide military supplies to Ukraine but nothing has been sent so far. Even if it does, why should Russia's neighbours be unarmed? After all, Russia guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in 1994, and that worked awfully well, didn't it?

[scherzkeks]

Bluebarge said:

Ukraine now has a govt. chosen by its people, not by some shadowy figures...

[Mr Whippy]

Joey Ramone said:

Mr Whippy said:

But I can't imagine Putin is stupid.

If forum discussions can reveal his inadequacies then I'm sure within his circle of friends and advisors that relatively firm and solid policies are pushed forward that are generally agreed upon throughout the leadership elements?

This is where I'm confused, because if Putin is acting like a loose cannon, he's staying in control for a long long time.

So if he's not a loose cannon and following what will make his fellow leadership happy then what kind of regime change will really change the tune?


Unless it's something between those two options... but I'm not so sure that it is.

I think what he is doing is supported among those that matter.

Hmmm

Putin has spent his time in power ensuring that there is no such thing as a loyal opposition (Labour to Conservative, Democrat to Republican, etc). Or indeed any effective form of opposition full stop. That's why he's still in control. Because he's a fking totalitarian. Whatever vestiges of support remain do so because of the lack of a functioning alternative.

But that doesn't make sense if he is just a puppet for the wealthy/elites.

Their agenda will be being fulfilled by his actions...

So you have to ask what their agenda is.

[AreOut]

Bluebarge said:

Where is your evidence that the US or EU instigated the revolution in Ukraine?

this is in front of ukraine intelligence agency, need I say more? I really can't get why you are surprised, it's not like this would be the first time for US to do something like this.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7-O9wHlZ6Fg/VIiSc0rylcI/...

[Mr Whippy]

AreOut said:

Bluebarge said:

Where is your evidence that the US or EU instigated the revolution in Ukraine?

this is in front of ukraine intelligence agency, need I say more? I really can't get why you are surprised, it's not like this would be the first time for US to do something like this.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7-O9wHlZ6Fg/VIiSc0rylcI/...

The USA and it's flags.

They really do belie their motives better than anything else.

We OWN you, that is what it says

[Liokault]

Mr Whippy said:

Joey Ramone said:

Mr Whippy said:

But I can't imagine Putin is stupid.

If forum discussions can reveal his inadequacies then I'm sure within his circle of friends and advisors that relatively firm and solid policies are pushed forward that are generally agreed upon throughout the leadership elements?

This is where I'm confused, because if Putin is acting like a loose cannon, he's staying in control for a long long time.

So if he's not a loose cannon and following what will make his fellow leadership happy then what kind of regime change will really change the tune?


Unless it's something between those two options... but I'm not so sure that it is.

I think what he is doing is supported among those that matter.

Hmmm

Putin has spent his time in power ensuring that there is no such thing as a loyal opposition (Labour to Conservative, Democrat to Republican, etc). Or indeed any effective form of opposition full stop. That's why he's still in control. Because he's a fking totalitarian. Whatever vestiges of support remain do so because of the lack of a functioning alternative.

But that doesn't make sense if he is just a puppet for the wealthy/elites.

Their agenda will be being fulfilled by his actions...

So you have to ask what their agenda is.

I don't think that Putin is anyone's puppet. Crazy, yes, puppet no.

[Mr Whippy]

So if he doesn't sing to anyone else's song, why is it taking the USA to unseat him with these economic sanctions? Surely it'd have already happened and he'd have been replaced by now by those internal to Russia?

Dave

[Liokault]

Mr Whippy said:

So if he doesn't sing to anyone else's song, why is it taking the USA to unseat him with these economic sanctions? Surely it'd have already happened and he'd have been replaced by now by those internal to Russia?

Dave

Your logic is flawed.i don't even understand what your trying to argue now.

I think you're setting up straw men. Certainly your trying to argue points that no one here is making.

[Mr Whippy]

Liokault said:

Mr Whippy said:

So if he doesn't sing to anyone else's song, why is it taking the USA to unseat him with these economic sanctions? Surely it'd have already happened and he'd have been replaced by now by those internal to Russia?

Dave

Your logic is flawed.i don't even understand what your trying to argue now.

I think you're setting up straw men. Certainly your trying to argue points that no one here is making.

You're saying he is in power and doing things that no one else in Russia, or the rest of the world wants.

I'm saying I don't believe he'd be in power for so long with that attitude.

Thus I think he is singing to someone else's tune. Ie, elite oligarchy or capitalist cronies or whatever else.

[Joey Ramone]

Mr Whippy said:

But that doesn't make sense if he is just a puppet for the wealthy/elites.

Their agenda will be being fulfilled by his actions...

So you have to ask what their agenda is.

He OWNS the wealthy elites. They are his puppets, not the other way around.His personal wealth is estimated at around $40bn. It dwarfs theirs. He forced the oligarchs to submit, or he persecuted them (Mikhail Khordokhovsky, being one glaring example)and/or forced them into exile until they relinquished any pretence to genuine political influence.

[superkartracer]

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/list/top-50-riche...

70 billion and prob far more, makes him one very dangerous man.

[NRS]

Mr Whippy said:

So why aren't they invading Saudi Arabia to liberate their oppressed people?

Dave

Still not answered.

People seem to think it's USA or nothing. My opinion - the US is completely self-serving, both internally and externally. Saudi is ok, so is invading other countries that you have nothing to do with, yet neighbourhood fights are not on (not saying either are ok, but they're as bad as each other). Or the American dream - well, it's a lovely way of separating money between poor and rich on the hope that you can make it to be one of the rich. I'd much rather the rich were poorer and the poorer richer. It's a far better way of living.

Joey Ramone said:

Mr Whippy said:

But that doesn't make sense if he is just a puppet for the wealthy/elites.

Their agenda will be being fulfilled by his actions...

So you have to ask what their agenda is.

He OWNS the wealthy elites. They are his puppets, not the other way around.His personal wealth is estimated at around $40bn. It dwarfs theirs. He forced the oligarchs to submit, or he persecuted them (Mikhail Khordokhovsky, being one glaring example)and/or forced them into exile until they relinquished any pretence to genuine political influence.

All it would take is one hitman if they really wanted him out though.

[Bluebarge]

AreOut said:

this is in front of ukraine intelligence agency, need I say more? I really can't get why you are surprised, it's not like this would be the first time for US to do something like this.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-7-O9wHlZ6Fg/VIiSc0rylcI/...

You're right - that clinches it - photo of random building, taken at an angle, with two flags outside. You really think when spies visit they wave flags?

[Liokault]

NRS said:

All it would take is one hitman if they really wanted him out though.

Because it's that easy, hence every world leader maintaining 100% popularity as it only takes 1 hit man.


Out of interest, how many world leaders were "hit" this year?

[Bluebarge]

NRS said:

Mr Whippy said:

So why aren't they invading Saudi Arabia to liberate their oppressed people?

Dave

Still not answered.



All it would take is one hitman if they really wanted him out though.

Probably because it is wildly off-topic and another of Dave's tactics of inventing someone else's position so that he can attack it.

No-one on here has been claiming the USA is perfect. It does not intervene to impose democracy all over the world and it is a practitioner of realpolitik in international relations as much as anyone. However, it does not invade its neighbours on etnhnic grounds, to impose its own satellite govt or to acquire new territory.

If you had any real experience of either country, you would know which is the better country to live in. People flock to invest and live in one country, but not the other - what does that tell you?

[NRS]

Bluebarge said:

Probably because it is wildly off-topic and another of Dave's tactics of inventing someone else's position so that he can attack it.

No-one on here has been claiming the USA is perfect. It does not intervene to impose democracy all over the world and it is a practitioner of realpolitik in international relations as much as anyone. However, it does not invade its neighbours on etnhnic grounds, to impose its own satellite govt or to acquire new territory.

If you had any real experience of either country, you would know which is the better country to live in. People flock to invest and live in one country, but not the other - what does that tell you?

I would disagree the US does not invade - they have gone into places and changed governments to suite them. Thus they don't need to acquire new territory, since that is seen as bad these days. Just stick some people in there to say yes to what you want and it's effectively the same. And the stuff they've done is not to neighbours - it's potentially worse in that sense since there is very little justification for them, whereas at least Russia can use the Russian population there as an excuse.

I agree Russia has a lot more problems, just I view a lot of the American issues as being more hidden as it's unpopular to be as blantant as Russia.

Liokault said:

NRS said:

All it would take is one hitman if they really wanted him out though.

Because it's that easy, hence every world leader maintaining 100% popularity as it only takes 1 hit man.


Out of interest, how many world leaders were "hit" this year?

No idea. My point wasn't that he's 100% popular, but that if they really were pissed off with him it wouldn't be a problem getting rid of him.

[Mr Whippy]

Well it seems the USA are at it again.

They are CERTAIN that North Korea hacked Sony. Pretence for war! More terror and fear!

They were just as certain that Assad was using chemical weapons on children too

These are also the same intelligence people who tortured people but lied about it.

So you have lying incompetents? Or competent liars running the show?



Look Bluebarge, I'm not saying Russia are great, nor am I saying USA are bad.

I'm just saying they're both as bad as each other in this war (hot, cold, economic, willy waving, whatever), and all the others that have gone before.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Bluebarge said:

AreOut said:

Bluebarge said:

So we have to do whatever you say or you will incinerate the planet?

Great strategy.

Or would be if there weren't at least 4 other powers with ICBMs.

There is MAD and mad, and I don't think Putin is mad. If he were, he wouldn't stay leader of Russia. So, put it away.

no but you should stop instigating color revolutions and arming nations close to their borders, I'm quite sure USA would react if Russia started revolution in Mexico or Canada to bring their people to rule the country

Where is your evidence that the US or EU instigated the revolution in Ukraine?

Have you forgotten that there have since been elections in Ukraine since that revolution (except in those parts of Ukraine occupied by Russian separatists and Russian troops)? Ukraine now has a govt. chosen by its people, not by some shadowy figures you seem to believe in.

Who is arming Ukraine? The US may now vote to provide military supplies to Ukraine but nothing has been sent so far. Even if it does, why should Russia's neighbours be unarmed? After all, Russia guaranteed Ukraine's sovereignty in 1994, and that worked awfully well, didn't it?

Find out where the saying banana republic comes from. The USA are so good at changing none compliant governments, to USA compliant governments, a term was invented for it!

[Bluebarge]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Find out where the saying banana republic comes from. The USA are so good at changing none compliant governments, to USA compliant governments, a term was invented for it!

Sure, but try living in the here and now my friend.

The problem with you chaps is that you can't see that the world has moved on since WW2, and that talk of "spheres of influence", "national destiny" and all that crap is old hat. You're still trying to play "The Great Game" when the rest of the World has moved on. It's Trade and Ideas that brings influence my friend, not guns. Your country has a population 6 times bigger than that of Texas, yet your economy is half its size. Fix that, and then you can claim to be a great country. Right now you have a lot of land, not that many people, a lot of enemies, few friends, and not much to offer the World except oil -and there's plenty of that elsewhere.

So, fix your democracy, root out corruption, establish the rule of law, alow a free press and Russia may realise its potential and take a genuine position of influence on the World stage.

[hidetheelephants]

Mr Whippy said:

Well it seems the USA are at it again.

They are CERTAIN that North Korea hacked Sony. Pretence for war! More terror and fear! rolling of and hoping fat boy doesn't get frisky and lob a bucket of instant sunshine into downtown Seoul.

EFA