War with Russia

Author
Discussion

Bill

52,471 posts

254 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
hidetheelephants said:
russian apologists said:
Waah, waah, waah; the glorious socialist workers' paradise has liberated the oppressed proletariat of Crimea and is working to achieve the same in the loyal state of Donetsk, but the septics aren't playing fair and it's not fair the wheels are coming off the economy.
Get a grip; a few months ago you were telling us how the US was a broken reed and would do nothing about Putin's actions in Crimea and Ukraine, now it's
moaning minnies said:
So unfair! It'll be nukes next and it'll be Obama's fault!!!11one!!1
Not to mention "Putin's such a manly man, Obama will never be able to stand up to him".

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
I must be said, the number of people here seemingly supportive of Russia's position is quite alarming. By any measure, Russia remains a country where democracy, freedom of speech and opportunity for the masses are all in short supply. The simple truth is that the apologists for Russia would absolutely hate living there under the conditions most of the Russian people are subjected to.

The anti-American nonsense is also ill-informed, ignorant and prejudiced. Now America has its problems, but regarding the US and Russia on equal footing in terms of fairness and accountability is so absurd it is laughable.
They don't need to be on "equal footing." That entire construct is merely a justification for agression.

And quite a bit of evidence has been provided here that the protests were orchestrated by the United States and it's proxies. You choose to ignore this, because (I suspect) it would require critical thinking, a skill in short supply around here.




toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
toppstuff said:
I must be said, the number of people here seemingly supportive of Russia's position is quite alarming. By any measure, Russia remains a country where democracy, freedom of speech and opportunity for the masses are all in short supply. The simple truth is that the apologists for Russia would absolutely hate living there under the conditions most of the Russian people are subjected to.

The anti-American nonsense is also ill-informed, ignorant and prejudiced. Now America has its problems, but regarding the US and Russia on equal footing in terms of fairness and accountability is so absurd it is laughable.
They don't need to be on "equal footing." That entire construct is merely a justification for agression.

And quite a bit of evidence has been provided here that the protests were orchestrated by the United States and it's proxies. You choose to ignore this, because (I suspect) it would require critical thinking, a skill in short supply around here.
I'm not "choosing to ignore" anything. My "critical thinking' is just as good as yours, even if I reach different conclusions.

I can even manage this without being condescending. smile

2013BRM

39,731 posts

283 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
scherzkeks said:
toppstuff said:
I must be said, the number of people here seemingly supportive of Russia's position is quite alarming. By any measure, Russia remains a country where democracy, freedom of speech and opportunity for the masses are all in short supply. The simple truth is that the apologists for Russia would absolutely hate living there under the conditions most of the Russian people are subjected to.

The anti-American nonsense is also ill-informed, ignorant and prejudiced. Now America has its problems, but regarding the US and Russia on equal footing in terms of fairness and accountability is so absurd it is laughable.
They don't need to be on "equal footing." That entire construct is merely a justification for agression.

And quite a bit of evidence has been provided here that the protests were orchestrated by the United States and it's proxies. You choose to ignore this, because (I suspect) it would require critical thinking, a skill in short supply around here.
I'm not "choosing to ignore" anything. My "critical thinking' is just as good as yours, even if I reach different conclusions.

I can even manage this without being condescending.smile
now, THAT, is a rare skill around here

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
2013BRM said:
toppstuff said:
scherzkeks said:
toppstuff said:
I must be said, the number of people here seemingly supportive of Russia's position is quite alarming. By any measure, Russia remains a country where democracy, freedom of speech and opportunity for the masses are all in short supply. The simple truth is that the apologists for Russia would absolutely hate living there under the conditions most of the Russian people are subjected to.

The anti-American nonsense is also ill-informed, ignorant and prejudiced. Now America has its problems, but regarding the US and Russia on equal footing in terms of fairness and accountability is so absurd it is laughable.
They don't need to be on "equal footing." That entire construct is merely a justification for agression.

And quite a bit of evidence has been provided here that the protests were orchestrated by the United States and it's proxies. You choose to ignore this, because (I suspect) it would require critical thinking, a skill in short supply around here.
I'm not "choosing to ignore" anything. My "critical thinking' is just as good as yours, even if I reach different conclusions.

I can even manage this without being condescending.smile
now, THAT, is a rare skill around here
scherzkeks specialises in ad-hominem attacks, yet rarely offers anything substantial in return. Best bet is just to ignore him.

A chart showing Ukrainian casualties to date.




Edited by skyrover on Friday 19th December 11:42

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
scherzkeks specialises in ad-hominem attacks, yet rarely offers anything substantial in return. Best bet is just to ignore him.

A chart showing Ukrainian casualties to date.




Edited by skyrover on Friday 19th December 11:42
I respond to substance with substance. For everything else, derision saves time. coffee

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
skyrover said:
scherzkeks specialises in ad-hominem attacks, yet rarely offers anything substantial in return. Best bet is just to ignore him.

A chart showing Ukrainian casualties to date.




Edited by skyrover on Friday 19th December 11:42
I respond to substance with substance. For everything else, derision saves time. coffee
I rest my case

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
I rest my case
You never had a case. Back to posting pretty pictures.

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
skyrover said:
I rest my case
You never had a case. Back to posting pretty pictures.
Just for you smile



Putin signals he won't back down over Ukraine

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/vladimir...

Mr Whippy

28,941 posts

240 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
Bluebarge said:
And that's me done for this thread - far too many Dave Sparts, fantasists and totalitarian apologists on here for me.
I must be said, the number of people here seemingly supportive of Russia's position is quite alarming. By any measure, Russia remains a country where democracy, freedom of speech and opportunity for the masses are all in short supply. The simple truth is that the apologists for Russia would absolutely hate living there under the conditions most of the Russian people are subjected to.

The anti-American nonsense is also ill-informed, ignorant and prejudiced. Now America has its problems, but regarding the US and Russia on equal footing in terms of fairness and accountability is so absurd it is laughable.
Not supportive of Russia, but just not supportive of the USA either.

It seems there are lots of "America... fk Yeah" types on here too, so that's me done for this thread as well smile

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Mr Whippy said:
Not supportive of Russia, but just not supportive of the USA either.

It seems there are lots of "America... fk Yeah" types on here too, so that's me done for this thread as well smile
I am not a "america - fk yeah " type, for sure.

But the attempts by some to compare the US with Russia are laughable. Quantums attempts to compare the treatment of US reporters to Russian reporters is pure fiction. Utter BS.

For all of its faults, the US is still a country where its leaders can be removed and even impeached. The US has a constitution that protects the rights of its citizens and the first amendment protects the freedom of the press. The system works - Watergate being an example, which led to the public destruction of a presidency.

Russia has no such checks and balances.

As long as Russia is essentially an autocracy, no-one can compare it to the US IMO. To even try is laughable.

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
For all of its faults, the US is still a country where its leaders can be removed and even impeached. The US has a constitution that protects the rights of its citizens and the first amendment protects the freedom of the press. The system works - Watergate being an example, which led to the public destruction of a presidency.

Russia has no such checks and balances.

As long as Russia is essentially an autocracy, no-one can compare it to the US IMO. To even try is laughable.
Watergate could never happen today. See Manning,Snowden. Daniel Ellsburg himself has been quoted on this. Freedom of the press in the truest sense no longer exists.

Constitutional rights and civil liberties have deterioriated in many areas since 9/11.

I realize that by responding to this claim I am validating it on a superficial level, so let me repeat: there is no requirement for "equal footing" as you claim. First, the very concept is subject to the point of view of the observer (and his or her worldview and cultural background), and second, this does not justify unwarranted agression toward Russia.


skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
I realize that by responding to this claim I am validating it on a superficial level, so let me repeat: there is no requirement for "equal footing" as you claim. First, the very concept is subject to the point of view of the observer (and his or her worldview and cultural background), and second, this does not justify unwarranted agression toward Russia.
Okay lets keep this simple for you scherzkeks...

If you were a journalist, where would you feel safer, the US or Russia?
where would you rather live... The USA or Russia?

toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
skyrover said:
scherzkeks said:
I realize that by responding to this claim I am validating it on a superficial level, so let me repeat: there is no requirement for "equal footing" as you claim. First, the very concept is subject to the point of view of the observer (and his or her worldview and cultural background), and second, this does not justify unwarranted agression toward Russia.
Okay lets keep this simple for you scherzkeks...

If you were a journalist, where would you feel safer, the US or Russia?
where would you rather live... The USA or Russia?
And, also important, what the hell was scherzkeks last post on about? There is a different interpretation based on anyones "worldview and cultural background". Really !?? What complete rubbish.

It is a completely simple situation: The US is a social democracy. Presidents CAN and ARE stopped regularly by the two-house system from doing what they want. The US constitution absolutely enshrines the rights of the individual. And it has teeth. AND the "administration" is defeated regularly by this system of checks and balances. Russia is a complete autocracy in comparison. Different "interpretations" don't come into it, unless you are a Russian apologist trying to defend the indefensible.

Scherzkeks position is factually and intellectually weak.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Bluebarge said:
Saddam had ideas about gassing his own people - that's what got him into trouble. No-one gives a sh*t what currency you sell your oil in - that's decided by the market, not the US State Dept.

Jeez, there are some proper "pencils up the nose" fruit loops on here.
I think you are naive if you believe that.

2013BRM

39,731 posts

283 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
anonymous said:
[redacted]
really? I believe there are some proper "pencils up the nose" fruit loops on here too actually

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
And, also important, what the hell was scherzkeks last post on about? There is a different interpretation based on anyones "worldview and cultural background". Really !?? What complete rubbish.

It is a completely simple situation: The US is a social democracy. Presidents CAN and ARE stopped regularly by the two-house system from doing what they want. The US constitution absolutely enshrines the rights of the individual. And it has teeth. AND the "administration" is defeated regularly by this system of checks and balances. Russia is a complete autocracy in comparison. Different "interpretations" don't come into it, unless you are a Russian apologist trying to defend the indefensible.

Scherzkeks position is factually and intellectually weak.
You still don't get it:
Your generalized commentary on social justice in the United States and Russia does not provide moral justification for overt or covert aggression toward Russia in this context.

It appears you have difficulty separating the concepts, rendering your entire post moot -- again.






Also, just for sts and giggles, according to a recent Princeton study, the US is an oligarchy. hehe






Edited by scherzkeks on Friday 19th December 14:05

skyrover

12,668 posts

203 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
Still waiting for an answer scherzkeks.

Obviously you have great insight into the inner workings of both Russia and the USA.

So tell us, as an investigative journalist, where would you rather work and live?


toppstuff

13,698 posts

246 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
toppstuff said:
And, also important, what the hell was scherzkeks last post on about? There is a different interpretation based on anyones "worldview and cultural background". Really !?? What complete rubbish.

It is a completely simple situation: The US is a social democracy. Presidents CAN and ARE stopped regularly by the two-house system from doing what they want. The US constitution absolutely enshrines the rights of the individual. And it has teeth. AND the "administration" is defeated regularly by this system of checks and balances. Russia is a complete autocracy in comparison. Different "interpretations" don't come into it, unless you are a Russian apologist trying to defend the indefensible.

Scherzkeks position is factually and intellectually weak.
You still don't get it:
Your generalized commentary on social justice in the United States and Russia does not provide moral justification for overt or covert aggression toward Russia in this context.

It appears you have difficulty separating the concepts, rendering your entire post moot -- again.






Also, just for sts and giggles, according to a recent Princeton study, the US is an oligarchy. hehe






Edited by scherzkeks on Friday 19th December 14:05
If you stop making stupid ill informed points about the US while ignoring the obvious problems with Russia, then I will stop pointing them out to you.

Turning to the apparent perceived "aggression" toward Russia, that is also complete nonsense.

Mother Russia is the architect of her own problems. For most of Eastern Europe, WW2 ended not in 1945 but in 1991 when they finally became free of Moscow. It is Russia's fault that she is almost surrounded with countries that have turned their backs on her.

You made the point this is 'subject to the point of view of the observer (and his or her worldview and cultural background)'.

This is the only thing you have written that is true. Go to Poland, Hungary, Estonia, for example, and see how their position is 'subject to the point of view of the observer (and his or her worldview and cultural background)' and learn how these countries want nothing to do with Russia, given the choice. No-one can blame them.

Putin has simply perpetuated the problem, replacing 40 years of communist bullying with autocratic capitalist bullying, using oil and gas as the weapon. There has been no attempt to build meaningful alliances, no attempt at post-Soviet reconciliation. And yet now Russia feels threatened because no-one likes them. Given how Russia behaves, that is hardly surprising.

If Russia does not want to feel they are subject to "aggression", then they need to acknowledge their own aggression and 4 decades of oppression. Moscow could try and build alliances rather than just stand there growling at people. The problem is that Putin does not know how to do this.



scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Friday 19th December 2014
quotequote all
toppstuff said:
If you stop making stupid ill informed points about the US while ignoring the obvious problems with Russia, then I will stop pointing them out to you.

Turning to the apparent perceived "aggression" toward Russia, that is also complete nonsense.

Mother Russia is the architect of her own problems. For most of Eastern Europe, WW2 ended not in 1945 but in 1991 when they finally became free of Moscow. It is Russia's fault that she is almost surrounded with countries that have turned their backs on her.

You made the point this is 'subject to the point of view of the observer (and his or her worldview and cultural background)'.

This is the only thing you have written that is true. Go to Poland, Hungary, Estonia, for example, and see how their position is 'subject to the point of view of the observer (and his or her worldview and cultural background)' and learn how these countries want nothing to do with Russia, given the choice. No-one can blame them.

Putin has simply perpetuated the problem, replacing 40 years of communist bullying with autocratic capitalist bullying, using oil and gas as the weapon. There has been no attempt to build meaningful alliances, no attempt at post-Soviet reconciliation. And yet now Russia feels threatened because no-one likes them. Given how Russia behaves, that is hardly surprising.

If Russia does not want to feel they are subject to "aggression", then they need to acknowledge their own aggression and 4 decades of oppression. Moscow could try and build alliances rather than just stand there growling at people. The problem is that Putin does not know how to do this.
Platitudes and broad speculation aside, you are off topic again.

I thought there might be potential for a discussion with you, but I'll have to pass.