War with Russia
Discussion
Mojocvh said:
Still waiting for you to offer a comment on the state of the Russian regime. If you do not I and others will be left to conclude that you actually agree and in fact are flaming in a futile attempt to troll and detract from the [important] direction of the thread.
Over to you.
Oh this is hilarious, it's you and others now is it? Nice attempt at making it look like you are a part of some cheer-leading in-crowd, but I think you'll find that you're quite on your own with the constant deflecting and trying to get me on the defensive over your so far 4 completely substance-free posts. well not completely, this last one really did make me laugh so cheers for that.Over to you.
I will humour you with a repeat of my opinion: I think Russia has much to offer Europe and vice-versa. I would love to see it integrated into Europe and even NATO and all parties involved should start digging deep for some mutual empathy to get back to cooperation, because they mistakenly think that warmongering is more profitable, but it isn't.
isee said:
I will humour you with a repeat of my opinion: I think Russia has much to offer Europe and vice-versa. I would love to see it integrated into Europe and even NATO and all parties involved should start digging deep for some mutual empathy to get back to cooperation, because they mistakenly think that warmongering is more profitable, but it isn't.
A great opportunity was missed in the 90s.Greed and moronicness won out, again.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IbLrjA7zbMQC&a...
isee said:
I will humour you with a repeat of my opinion: I think Russia has much to offer Europe and vice-versa. I would love to see it integrated into Europe and even NATO and all parties involved should start digging deep for some mutual empathy to get back to cooperation, because they mistakenly think that warmongering is more profitable, but it isn't.
I would love to see a free and fair Russia with good European relations and co-operation.But not the Russia that's run by gangsters, bullies/invades it's neighbours and treats it's own agreements like toilet paper.
There's a good reason the Baltic's are nervous and re-arming, because they have very recent history of Russian occupation/oppression.
skyrover said:
I would love to see a free and fair Russia with good European relations and co-operation.
But not the Russia that's run by gangsters, bullies/invades it's neighbours and treats it's own agreements like toilet paper.
There's a good reason the Baltic's are nervous and re-arming, because they have very recent history of Russian occupation/oppression.
You and I agree on your first two points then (never expected to be saying that)But not the Russia that's run by gangsters, bullies/invades it's neighbours and treats it's own agreements like toilet paper.
There's a good reason the Baltic's are nervous and re-arming, because they have very recent history of Russian occupation/oppression.
But as a Baltics man I would advise against falling for the hype of "Russia is about to invade us, we have history you know". Have you noticed how when it comes to beating the Nazis, it was by nationals of all the USSR nations together, yet when it comes to the "occupation" it was done by the evil Russians?
Stalin was a Georgian, Khrushchev was a Ukrainian, don't for a minute think that the "victim" countries themselves were completely without blame for the folly that was communism and the USSR. They were active participants and I know many an ex- high ranking communist party member who is Lithuanian through and through.
Give it time, the same countries will be shouting about the EU and NATO occupation whilst trying to cozy up to China or whatever country has cash and protection to give them.
You forgot Lenin was also Ukrainian 
Yes, the Soviet union was just that... a union of "council's", comprised of each nation.
The history is indeed complex and I agree it's not as cut and dry as "Russia invaded and occupied people who had nothing to do with it". There is a lot of shared history...more than an artificial construct of the EU.
But those countries chose to leave the Soviet Union. Clearly they do not want back in.
I would like the give the people's of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland a little more credit than "they only joined the EU for handouts", which although undoubtedly is a part of it, is also based around economic and military security.
Yes, the Soviet union was just that... a union of "council's", comprised of each nation.
The history is indeed complex and I agree it's not as cut and dry as "Russia invaded and occupied people who had nothing to do with it". There is a lot of shared history...more than an artificial construct of the EU.
But those countries chose to leave the Soviet Union. Clearly they do not want back in.
I would like the give the people's of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland a little more credit than "they only joined the EU for handouts", which although undoubtedly is a part of it, is also based around economic and military security.
Edited by skyrover on Wednesday 15th April 07:37
skyrover said:
You forgot Lenin was also Ukrainian
Yes, the Soviet union was just that... a union of "council's", comprised of each nation.
The history is indeed complex and I agree it's not as cut and dry as "Russia invaded and occupied people who had nothing to do with it". There is a lot of shared history...more than an artificial construct of the EU.
But those countries chose to leave the Soviet Union. Clearly they do not want back in.
I would like the give the people's of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland a little more credit than "they only joined the EU for handouts", which although undoubtedly is a part of it, is also based around economic and military security.
Maybe you are right, it just pisses me off that every time I go there the only thing the local "entrepreneurs" talk about is how to defraud the EU handouts or tariffs. If it's not installing a massive solar plant with inflated projected output, then it's planting trees for the carbon credits in the same field that already gets EU money for keeping the grass cut... Honestly the amount of effort that goes into thinking up these schemes, could probably spend less effort setting up a legitimate biz. But I digress, we agree that cooperating with a just free and democratic Russia is the way forward and that's good. Yes, the Soviet union was just that... a union of "council's", comprised of each nation.
The history is indeed complex and I agree it's not as cut and dry as "Russia invaded and occupied people who had nothing to do with it". There is a lot of shared history...more than an artificial construct of the EU.
But those countries chose to leave the Soviet Union. Clearly they do not want back in.
I would like the give the people's of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland a little more credit than "they only joined the EU for handouts", which although undoubtedly is a part of it, is also based around economic and military security.
Edited by skyrover on Wednesday 15th April 07:37
isee said:
Maybe you are right, it just pisses me off that every time I go there the only thing the local "entrepreneurs" talk about is how to defraud the EU handouts or tariffs. If it's not installing a massive solar plant with inflated projected output, then it's planting trees for the carbon credits in the same field that already gets EU money for keeping the grass cut...
Isn't that exactly how the "green" energy industry works?I'm looking at a forest of wind turbines outside my window right now actually. Who knows for how long once the subsidies dry up.
isee said:
Maybe you are right, it just pisses me off that every time I go there the only thing the local "entrepreneurs" talk about is how to defraud the EU handouts or tariffs. If it's not installing a massive solar plant with inflated projected output, then it's planting trees for the carbon credits in the same field that already gets EU money for keeping the grass cut... Honestly the amount of effort that goes into thinking up these schemes, could probably spend less effort setting up a legitimate biz. But I digress, we agree that cooperating with a just free and democratic Russia is the way forward and that's good.
Sounds like they'll fit right in!skyrover said:
Isn't that exactly how the "green" energy industry works?
I'm looking at a forest of wind turbines outside my window right now actually. Who knows for how long once the subsidies dry up.
sorry I should have been more specific I suppose, the land where the trees are planted is classed as for agricultural use (i.e. to grow crops in) and gets EU money for mowing it if it's not currently growing crops. they plant the trees in it to collect the VER credits and keep collecting on the mowing grass. This was just off the top of my head, there are lots of schemes going and it just goes to illustrate the general ethos...I'm looking at a forest of wind turbines outside my window right now actually. Who knows for how long once the subsidies dry up.
isee said:
But as a Baltics man I would advise against falling for the hype of "Russia is about to invade us, we have history you know". Have you noticed how when it comes to beating the Nazis, it was by nationals of all the USSR nations together, yet when it comes to the "occupation" it was done by the evil Russians?
How do you square this with cyber attacks, routine airspace incursion and kidnapping border guards? It's not black and white as you say but it's not all crying wolf either.hidetheelephants said:
How do you square this with cyber attacks, routine airspace incursion and kidnapping border guards? It's not black and white as you say but it's not all crying wolf either.
Are you referring to the illegal CIA prisons (in Poland and Lithuania) hosting the kidnapees, the US drone intercepted by Russia last Monday (over international waters as always) and the NSA back-doors and indiscriminant "data gathering"? Oh wait you are referring to another country doing the same, but being painted as the Third Reich reincarnate for of it?Countries act out of self-interest and those can afford it flaunt all international norms. It's a "prisoner's dilemma" game and the optimal strategy would have been for everyone involved abstaining from such activities, but since it's not the case, we should accept it and move on to dialogue and empathy. It's hypocritical to be in most cases the initiator of all the s
t mentioned above, but then crying foul when others do it.I am not excusing Russian actions in Crimea or their arming of Eastern Ukrainians rebels, neither am I excusing the illegal CIA prisons, expanding NATO, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Kosovo etc etc.
We can accept that it happened and work with what we got, or we can carry on supporting colour revolutions, arming various groups and accusing each other of this and that. My personal choice is mutual respect, dialogue based on recognising other parties' interests and eventual integration of past opponents, which will remove most of the conflicting interests we have today and lead to prosperity for all.
Transmitter Man said:
Would your theory include putting Yanukovych back into his former position?
A yes or no will do.
Phil
Is it me or are more militant people on this thread always angling to discredit those they disagree with or to put a spin on what they are saying?A yes or no will do.
Phil
Ok, let's play your game: No.
Here is one for you: Do you agree that Russia is the initiator and the only party responsible for the ever escalating situation around the Ukraine?
a simple yes or no will do.
isee said:
Here is one for you: Do you agree that Russia is the initiator and the only party responsible for the ever escalating situation around the Ukraine?
a simple yes or no will do.
Your question is very leading and doesn't lend itself to a yes/no answer, so I have modified it slightly:a simple yes or no will do.
Do you agree that Russia is the initiator and the only party, out side the Ukraine, responsible for the ever escalating situation around the Ukraine?
Yes.
I also think that its not a problem if Ukraine wants to join NATO.
I also think that the majority of people want to and would benefit from Ukraine joining the EU.
I also think that on the weight of probability, Russia was largely responsible for the shooting down of a passenger aircraft over Ukraine.
I also think that Russia has sent normal troops and armor into Ukraine.
I also think that Putin is solely responsible for the current war in Ukraine.
isee said:
Are you referring to the illegal CIA prisons (in Poland and Lithuania) hosting the kidnapees, the US drone intercepted by Russia last Monday (over international waters as always) and the NSA back-doors and indiscriminant "data gathering"? Oh wait you are referring to another country doing the same, but being painted as the Third Reich reincarnate for of it?
Countries act out of self-interest and those can afford it flaunt all international norms. It's a "prisoner's dilemma" game and the optimal strategy would have been for everyone involved abstaining from such activities, but since it's not the case, we should accept it and move on to dialogue and empathy. It's hypocritical to be in most cases the initiator of all the st mentioned above, but then crying foul when others do it.
I am not excusing Russian actions in Crimea or their arming of Eastern Ukrainians rebels, neither am I excusing the illegal CIA prisons, expanding NATO, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Kosovo etc etc.
We can accept that it happened and work with what we got, or we can carry on supporting colour revolutions, arming various groups and accusing each other of this and that. My personal choice is mutual respect, dialogue based on recognising other parties' interests and eventual integration of past opponents, which will remove most of the conflicting interests we have today and lead to prosperity for all.
Fascinating; what relevance do the criminal acts of the CIA, a non-event with a drone and Snowden's big book of spying non-revelations have to do with the real or percieved risk of Volodya invading the Baltic states?Countries act out of self-interest and those can afford it flaunt all international norms. It's a "prisoner's dilemma" game and the optimal strategy would have been for everyone involved abstaining from such activities, but since it's not the case, we should accept it and move on to dialogue and empathy. It's hypocritical to be in most cases the initiator of all the s
t mentioned above, but then crying foul when others do it.I am not excusing Russian actions in Crimea or their arming of Eastern Ukrainians rebels, neither am I excusing the illegal CIA prisons, expanding NATO, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, Kosovo etc etc.
We can accept that it happened and work with what we got, or we can carry on supporting colour revolutions, arming various groups and accusing each other of this and that. My personal choice is mutual respect, dialogue based on recognising other parties' interests and eventual integration of past opponents, which will remove most of the conflicting interests we have today and lead to prosperity for all.
isee said:
Is it me or are more militant people on this thread always angling to discredit those they disagree with or to put a spin on what they are saying?
Ok, let's play your game: No.
Here is one for you: Do you agree that Russia is the initiator and the only party responsible for the ever escalating situation around the Ukraine?
a simple yes or no will do.
Ignoring the strawman element; Yes insofar as Poroshenko will probably be impeached if he agrees to anything more extensive than autonomous region status and the borders in ukrainian hands, whereas Volodya can reduce or stop the arms supply to the separatists with little or no direct political fall-out, in fact he can look like the great peacemaker and probably get those sanctions lifted. He would be a shoo-in at next year's Nobels; they gave one to Kissinger and Obama after all, so irony is definitely part of the selection process.Ok, let's play your game: No.
Here is one for you: Do you agree that Russia is the initiator and the only party responsible for the ever escalating situation around the Ukraine?
a simple yes or no will do.
Bluebarge said:
Wouldn't make a blind bit of difference given the number of warheads already pointed at the UK.
Exactly.And given they all point straight up muddies the waters too
People need to go play Civ2 or Civ3 in multiplayer. If you don't shaft others, you'll get shafted yourself.
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