War with Russia

[Octoposse]

skyrover said:

So your argument against the Russians invading their neighbours and trampling over every international law and treaty they signed up to is "well look what the US and Israel did once upon a time"?

Not quite - it's more that the article you have linked to as "a very telling piece" is actually one sided propaganda, as far as I can tell linked to a group based in Washington. And very, very dangerous propaganda at that, in that it appears to argue (and I confess I have not been able to read it in detail due to real life imposing itself) that Russia is a violent irrational rogue state that can only be contained through force and the threat of force. It skates over certain facts inconvenient to the chosen narrative and willfully fails to apply Occam's razor.

In reality Russia and its political class act entirely predictably and rationally in defence of what they perceive as their own interests - and I would argue actually more predictably and rationally than corresponding governments in the West (that is a practical judgement, not a moral one). That makes Russia actually easier to deal with, not harder. I can and have certainly have predicted what Moscow will do in circumstances that 'we' bring about. OK, I am (now) by profession an analyst, but certainly not one whose specialist area is Russia, and consequently far less qualified than those (I hope) are employed by our governments.

Ergo, it isn't miscalculation that has brought us to this ststorm that is destroying lives in Ukraine, literally and metaphorically. Or at least I'd hope not - but then again, given the miscalculation on the scale that led to Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria, who knows?

skyrover said:

Did the Crimean subject really have a choice? The election was not free, nor fair and is not recognised as a result.

Yes and no. Was the process without flaws, meeting minimum standards? No. Do the majority of people in Crimea consider themselves Russian and wish to be Russian? Yes. Fixation on the flawed process seems to be a willful diversion in order to refuse to acknowledge the probable majority view in Crimea, and to refuse to engage with that will beyond advancing the principle that ‘international boundaries are inviolable' (cough, cough, Kosovo . . . ).

skyrover said:

... and to call Russian actions "reactive"?.... they were rolling tanks ad APC's across the Donbass before the West even knew what was going on. The BUK used to shoot down the airliner was brought in to nullify the Ukrainian air force.

Exactly so (first and last bits anyway). Early encounters are Ukrainian APCs turned back by unarmed villagers. There's a deal to be done before blood is spilt but it means recognising Russian sovereignty in Crimea ("time to face reality" as we told Belgrade re Kosovo), which would have made Putin look like Bismark and Peter the Great rolled into one. So, no deal. Conflict escalates, men, women, children die. Ukrainian advantage in the air is countered by Russian air defence systems - with tragic results.

This has got to stop, both to end the suffering now and to reduce the risk of escalation with a country with whom we actually have no inherent conflict of interest. And it's not going to end unless we are realistic about what Moscow can and cannot give in return, rather than blinding ourselves with polemic.

[Transmitter Man]

Why don't you include the fact that Russian, without force or coercion transferred Crimean to Ukraine in 1954:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Cri...

Phil

[Cobnapint]

Octoposse said:

You do talk some rubbish.

You describe the report as one sided propaganda...

That doesn't mean the report is inaccurate or talking bks, it means you don't like what it says.

If you want real one sided propaganda, just go and read a Russian newspaper, watch any one of the Kremlin funded Russian TV stations, or listen to anything that comes out of Putin's mouth.

You might think about sticking your CV into the reception at RT, they'd love someone like you.

[scherzkeks]

Cobnapint said:

You do talk some rubbish.

You describe the report as one sided propaganda...

That doesn't mean the report is inaccurate or talking bks,

No, but it is. It fits the Rovian/Neocon approach to information, in that empires create their own realities. Not that you would know anything about that, of course.

[Mojocvh]

scherzkeks said:

Cobnapint said:

You do talk some rubbish.

You describe the report as one sided propaganda...

That doesn't mean the report is inaccurate or talking bks,

No, but it is. It fits the Rovian/Neocon approach to information, in that empires create their own realities. Not that you would know anything about that, of course.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05r844j



Now just fk off.

[Transmitter Man]

Mojocvh said:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b05r844j



Now just fk off.

It was different during Soviet times as Russia encouraged, and paid for many African's, of all colors, to travel to Russia to learn the language and study.

I remember 25+ years while visiting Kampala, the Ugandan capital seeing Russian prostitutes toting for business so maybe there was an exchange program!

Phil

[skyrover]

Rally in Berlin supporting Russia in Ukraine



Is that you Scherzkeks?

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

Rally in Berlin supporting Russia in Ukraine



Is that you Scherzkeks?

I see nothing claiming support for any side.The banner has a slogan calling for peace with Russia. After this post and the one on the Azmov battalion, I'd suggest you stay away from anything remotely related to German language, history, or culture. I still say you are Grumfutok's smurf account. PEGIDA!

[skyrover]

As you well know, they are "Novorussian" flags, both for the "Donetsk" people's republic and "Luhansk people's republic".

I'm sure they are waving them because they enjoy the heraldry of the designs.

At least they seem to have acknowledged Russia has illegally invaded and pillaged Ukraine.

[scherzkeks]

skyrover said:

As you well know, they are "Novorussian" flags, both for the "Donetsk" people's republic and "Luhansk people's republic".

I'm sure they are waving them because they enjoy the heraldry of the designs.

At least they seem to have acknowledged Russia has illegally invaded and pillaged Ukraine.

Stop digging.

[Mojocvh]

scherzkeks said:

skyrover said:

As you well know, they are "Novorussian" flags, both for the "Donetsk" people's republic and "Luhansk people's republic".

I'm sure they are waving them because they enjoy the heraldry of the designs.

At least they seem to have acknowledged Russia has illegally invaded and pillaged Ukraine.

Stop digging.

That's big that is coming from a Putin apologist such as yourself

[skyrover]

Mojocvh said:

scherzkeks said:

skyrover said:

As you well know, they are "Novorussian" flags, both for the "Donetsk" people's republic and "Luhansk people's republic".

I'm sure they are waving them because they enjoy the heraldry of the designs.

At least they seem to have acknowledged Russia has illegally invaded and pillaged Ukraine.

Stop digging.

That's big that is coming from a Putin apologist such as yourself

He hates the "West"... if it wasn't Putin it would be someone else. Facts, reason and logic be damned.

It would be funny if it were not so tragic.

[skyrover]

Another Russian solider captured by Ukrainian forces.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/26/uk-ukrain...

Apparently took a wrong turn with a truck full of ammunition and ended up at a Ukrainian checkpoint.

Russia has of course denied the man is employed by the MOD

[Cobnapint]

skyrover said:

Another Russian solider captured by Ukrainian forces.

Russia has of course denied the man is employed by the MOD

Poor f*cker gets caught, then is made redundant..!

Good old Vlad.

[Mr Sparkle]

Russian troops have annexed additional territory in Georgia by 'moving' their border 330m south, overrunning and potentially allowing them to blockade the Baku–Supsa pipeline.

Hardly a wonder Russia's neighbors are so desperate top form defense pacts and alliances.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33549462
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/14/georg...

[Cobnapint]

Mr Sparkle said:

Russian troops have annexed additional territory in Georgia by 'moving' their border 330m south, overrunning and potentially allowing them to blockade the Baku–Supsa pipeline.

Hardly a wonder Russia's neighbors are so desperate top form defense pacts and alliances.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33549462
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/14/georg...

It's all NATO's fault (just preparing you).

[skyrover]

Russia has vowed to veto any UN tribunal on Malaysia airlines flight 17

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/24/uk-ukrain...

...while announcing that Dutch flowers are now banned from import into the Russian Federation

http://www.rt.com/business/310873-russia-netherlan...

[MonkeyBusiness]

A few months ago Sweden believed there was a Russian sub in its waters.
Its been found.

https://www.thetrumpet.com/article/12943.19.0.0/wo...

[Cobnapint]

skyrover said:

Russia has vowed to veto any UN tribunal on Malaysia airlines flight 17

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/24/uk-ukrain...

...while announcing that Dutch flowers are now banned from import into the Russian Federation

http://www.rt.com/business/310873-russia-netherlan...

Toy throwing of the most juvenile kind, and this is supposed to be a responsible super power.

Russia has become as truth-averse as North Korea, and as isolated.

Nice one Putin, you're getting your wish.

[Mojocvh]

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/indian-s...

Four Sukhoi Su-30MKI fighters from the Indian air force's 2 Sqn have begun their involvement in a UK-based exercise also involving Royal Air Force Eurofighter Typhoons.

The Indradanush IV manouevres commenced on 21 July from RAF Coningsby in Lincolnshire, following the arrival of the Indian aircraft four days earlier. The exercise is intended "to enhance mutual operational understanding between the two air forces," the former says.